Will bees swarm if there is room in the hive?

Carol · July 14, 2013, 04:05:28 PM

I have a deep with 3 medium supers on it.
The deep was drawn out and lots of brood, the 1st medium was drawn out and I think some brood. I hope it will become part of the brood chamber.
The 2nd and 3rd medium were put on before we left, about 5 wks ago. There are a lot of bees in the hive. I checked the top super and no comb yet. Did not check the one below it. Is it necessary? All I did was lift the top cover and check the frames for comb.
As long as there is room for them to build and store honey is there any chance they will swarm. There is no queen excluder so she can go where she wants for now.
The palm trees are blooming.

JWChesnut · July 14, 2013, 05:11:23 PM

Yes, they can swarm. Swarm response is not singly conditioned on crowding. Swarm response is a negative feedback control on Queen Mandibular pheromone. If the concentration of the pheromone drops in the hive for *any* reason, bees will construct queen cells.

This is adaptive evolution-- if the queen is damaged or the hive unsuitable -- the lack of QMP encourages replacement.

Africanized genetics encourages rapid and early swarms-- one reason AHB replaces other races, they saturate the colony sites, and avoid disease (mites) by constant turnover.

Crowding and swarming are associated because a crowded hive dilutes QMP below the threshold (and behavioral excitment encourages swarm construction). Giving bees too much room (empty space) can generate swarms as well (as the pheromone dilutes into open space).

This board is crowded with novice beeks (not addressed to you) that are reporting "My nuc is swarming". My suspicion is a number of these counter-productive swarms are generated by the beekeeepers repeatedly tearing the brood nest apart in a quixotic search for the queen Dulcinea, and causing a drop in QMP levels.

Finski · July 14, 2013, 06:15:32 PM

.
When it is swarming time, you should look into brood box every week they there is queen cells.

Another thing is that colony needs all the time proper space to live. More or less.

JP · July 14, 2013, 06:59:06 PM

If a hive decides to gear to swarm having 15 boxes stacked up top is not going to discourage them. You have to know what's going on inside the hive & if the queen has room to lay directly above where she is currently laying. Do some searching on "honey bound".

...JP

Finski · July 18, 2013, 02:16:43 AM

Quote from: JWChesnut on July 14, 2013, 05:11:23 PM
Swarm response is not singly conditioned on crowding. Swarm response is a negative feedback control on Queen Mandibular pheromone. .

Surely not.

Swarming is a natural habit to bees to propagate.
Non swarming is a genetic error and human selection uses it.

Some hives swarm, what ever you do. Swarm is beehives baby.

Where from the impulse comes, that I have wondered, because many hives get it at same time.

Even if they swarm today, they have started queen rearing 2 weeks ago.

Carol · July 18, 2013, 12:02:58 PM

Finski...I am not sure they have swarmed...but when we got back it was very hot...in90's. There were many bees outside the hive and I saw an orientation flight that was the largest I'd seen. My husband suggested a swarm but could not find any in the trees around us...unless they knew exactly where they were going. The weather has been a bit cooler and overcast so perhaps those bees that were outside are inside working.

I have not been inside the hive other than to add supers before we left about 6 wks ago. I did remove the top to see if there was honey in the 3rd super. My goal is to have a hive that can sustain itself by not pulling all the honey and staying out of the brood nest. We are in and out during the year for a week or so at a time and don't want to have to feed them sugar water. We can put a jar of honey in for them (if we get to pull any) when we plan to leave and there has been a frost that kills all the blooms.

Now I am concerned about them being honey bound in the first super...the one I was hopeing would also become brood chamber. Should I check it? If there is no brood....should I put the empty super in that spot? This is a March package of bees.

I'm trying not to be a "newbee" that gets into the hive too often.

10framer · July 18, 2013, 12:14:50 PM

sounds like you had bees bearding and young workers orienting. that's all normal this time of year in the south.
it would be late for swarms up here but i expect things are very different in florida even though you're only a few hours away.
i'd go through the hive to see what was happening if i were you. if there is a major flow on there is always potential for swarming.

Finski · July 18, 2013, 02:31:32 PM

Quote from: Carol on July 18, 2013, 12:02:58 PM

I have not been inside the hive other than to add supers before we left about 6 wks ago.

I did remove the top to see if there was honey in the 3rd super.

My goal is to have a hive that can sustain itself by not pulling all the honey and staying out of the brood nest.

We are in and out during the year for a week or so at a time and don't want to have to feed them sugar water.

Oh dear. Better to say nothing.

.

.

Carol · July 19, 2013, 11:29:22 AM

Finski....please...say anything.. :roll: I am looking for all the info I can get....some say stay out..others say check every wk...but I enjoy all the different responses. I'll pull the top next week and see if they've started building in the 3rd super. If not...then I'll check the one below it and see where they are at. Since we are expecting rain everyday for the next week, I hate to disturb them too much. Figure if they can't take advantage of the blooming palms...then they'll empty a few cells in that 1st super and make more laying room. Does it work that way?

JWChesnut · July 19, 2013, 11:47:42 AM

Carol,
Working in the honey supers doesn't disturb the queen and brood very much in the summer. If you are worried about room, pull the 4-5-6 frames from the lowest honey box and move them up into the undrawn box in an every other frame pattern, replace with fresh foundation. As a result, You open the center core of the lowest super up for use, and you draw the bees up to work honey on the upper new boxes.

Sometimes the queen comes up and lays in the opened box, and sometimes they just backfill with more honey.

My established hives peak in population in June, and if they had enough room in June, they have room for the late summer. (Young colonies are different).