Supercedure cell process question

dfizer · May 22, 2014, 10:35:58 PM

I need a little education on queen activity. My first question is once a queen is condemned and deemed no longer worthy, does the rest of the hive just kick her out? I know they build supercedure cells and raise her replacement, but the part I'm confused about is what happens once the new queens are born and they fight down to just one... does the new queen and the old queen go at it? Does the rest of the hive ball the old queen? Does she fly out and take loyal workers with her (i.e. swarm)?

The reason I ask is that I found a hive loaded with queen cells - some frames had 3 on one side of a frame. These cells were hanging down (classic queen cells) right in the middle of the frame. I took a few of these frames and made split with them but then it occurred to me that its possible the hive was building the queen cells to supercede the existing queen. I am not sure if i left any queen cells in the existing hive but I am happy that I was able to make 5 new nucs from the frames with queen cells on them.

Thoughts please!

David

Better.to.Bee.than.not · May 23, 2014, 01:10:20 AM

As soon as they decide she is not worthy, they immediately start building a octagon style UFC fighting chamber, and then.... ok, sorry couldn't resist. No they do not immediately ball her or kick her out. actually sometimes there will even be two queens, the mother and daughter for a bit laying side by side. (for a bit. it doesn't continue that way forever usually.)
They typically build supercedure cells out of the way of the queen though because they have been known to assassinate their daughters when they run across them, and the bees know this( If the queen goes near the supercedure cell, they will ball and attempt to rebuff her from assassinating the new one if they like the new cell, which they typically do, if she doesn't get the hint, they will often tear her to shreds. But she can also get through and make a successful assassination attempt.)..... This is why they 'often' build for instance swarm cells on the bottom of frames I suspect, frankly. It is out of the queens laying pattern and thus travel path. same with super cedure cells (And they do actually also build swarm cells in the middle as well. it is a myth that they are 'always' on the bottom of frames.) congrats on getting the extra nucs I suppose but honestly I am one to believe 'generally' anyways, the bees know what to do and how to do it. They've been surviving tens of million years doing it. Though others have other ideas, and on some things I agree with them also. Although, when they decide they want to replace a queen, that isn't one of the times I disagree with the bees.

richter1978 · May 23, 2014, 08:08:35 AM

If it is supercedure and you didn't leave any cells with that queen, they'll just make more. I split a hive three ways this spring that I thought was about to swarm, turned out it was supercedure. Anyway as stated above, the old queen was laying right up until the replacement was mated and laying.

dfizer · May 23, 2014, 12:20:13 PM

Thank you for the information however still a few questions remain. When the new queen emerges does the old one fly off? If she does, does she take a swarm with her? The reason i ask this is I am trying to avoid losing any bees to a swarm. The primary intent for this years apiary is to grow it... I am accomplishing this through splits once queen cells are found.

Thanks again for the information.

David

Better.to.Bee.than.not · May 24, 2014, 12:52:21 AM

no, they will not, unless they are ready to swarm, but they make swarm cells for that. They usually starve the old queen out, mostly. Swarming is a specific process, and done with intent for it. well guess supercedure is also, but well it is a different intent and different process, really.

I might add, it is quite a common practice to requeen by for instance, finding your queen and clipping her leg, and then let the bees replace her. it works pretty much fine every time...though it isn't one of my proffered methods, personally.

jayj200 · May 25, 2014, 09:54:32 AM

once they build the octagon ring. is that when they give her the boxing gloves and combat boots?

glad you had the sense enough and resource's to make and populate 5 nucs

they all will roar till the Queen comes home
jay

Michael Bush · June 06, 2014, 04:17:45 PM

There is not one sequence of events. There are many possibilities. They may dispose of the old queen first (not as common), they may raise a new queen and she may start laying first, or they may never remove the old queen and she finally dies when she doesn't make enough pheromones to gather a retinue to care for her.

BeeMaster2 · June 06, 2014, 11:04:53 PM

Quote from: jayj200 on May 25, 2014, 09:54:32 AM
once they build the octagon ring. is that when they give her the boxing gloves and combat boots?

glad you had the sense enough and resource's to make and populate 5 nucs

they all will roar till the Queen comes home
jay

I find that if there is a queen cell, open or closed, they do roar.
I see this in my observation hive.
Jim