8 frame vs. 10 frame?

sarahplusbees · July 24, 2014, 01:16:00 PM

I've always heard the 8 vs 10 frame debate being discussed mostly with regards to weight. Even as a relatively new beekeeper I can definitely identify with the "beekeeper's back". So my partner and I decided to go to all 8 frame, medium bodies.

After a few months working with these smaller hives, and comparing them to the few 10 frames still in use, I have noticed a whole lot of other differences with the 8 frame hives. For one, the bees seem much more prone to build brace comb and burr comb and fill up even the weirdest parts of the 8 frame hives, even though there are still proper frames that haven't been drawn out. They also seem to keep the brood nest less orderly, with honey, pollen and brood all jumbled together on the same frame. With the ten frame hives, I've seen much less burr-comb or brace comb. The bees seem much more inclined to fill the actual frames, and I'm seeing a much better division of brood frames and honey frames. I've seen these tendencies in all six of my 8 frame hives, compared with the four ten frames I still have going. Mind you, all of the bees are from different stocks, many of which are from removals and swarms, so while it's not an ideally controlled experiment, I don't think the difference in hives can be linked with the genetic differences of the bees.

I'm curious if anyone else has noticed anything similar? I want to love the 8 frame hives, but they take so much more time to inspect because I'm constantly cleaning up messes, I am about ready to go back to 10 frame!

BeeMaster2 · July 24, 2014, 01:47:45 PM

Sara,
I think what you are seeing is the character of the bees, not the difference of the hives. I have had bees in 10 frame, regretably the only type I use, that would build comb between 2 wax foundation frames. There is a good chance they would have done the same in a 10 frame hive. Hang in there, you have a good setup. If I was starting over, I would have all 8 frame hives.
Jim

10framer · July 24, 2014, 10:25:40 PM

interesting. i use either ten or five frame equipment and haven't noticed anything similar but my 5 frame stuff is usually splits and by the time they fill two deeps they get split again or converted to 10 frame.
if i never planned on having more than 10 or 12 hives i'd probably run 8 frame equipment.

Joe D · July 24, 2014, 11:41:17 PM

I still run all 10 frame equipment, but I do have deep and mediums for brood chambers and some medium and shallow supers. Shallows are easier on the back and lifting.

Joe

OldMech · July 25, 2014, 12:16:39 AM

I have bees that do that in ten frame equipment.. I run all mediums, but mostly ten frame.. I picked up a couple 8 frame hives with bees, and intended to put them in ten frame equipment... but.. one thing led to another and I am low on equipment so they are still in the 8 frame.. Including nucs I have about 45 hives. My bees are Itallian cross. Carny Cross and whatever the local feral bees are, as well as a few VSH queens from Ridgetop Apiaries..
Bees from the same "style" will act very differently.. Some will build a LOT of brace comb and make comb that is frustrating to deal with, while another bee from the same breeder is the picture or perfection and neatness.. The VSH queens I ordered are all fantastic, except one.. and she is dropping some MEAN bees.. I get within ten feet of the hive I have them pinging me.. SO if she survives the winter shes a gonner...
Dont give up on the 8 frame.. I use as stated ten frame stuff, but I have also noticed that the bees tend to USE the 8 frames more.. a ten frame hive will often have to be coerced into drawing those outside frames, I have not seen any problem with the bees drawing the outer frames in the 8 frame hives... but I only have a couple... I think its just a matter of genetics.

rwurster · July 25, 2014, 01:17:40 AM

I've never noticed any difference on how my bees draw 5/8/10 frame hives. My 8 frame set ups are typically taller so I tend to use them inside the city limits. A 10 frame deep full of honey is a bit to lift, an 8 frame deep full of honey is nowhere as bad. I do use my 8 frame hives to get deep frames drawn and I should add that all my 8 frame equipment is deep.

BeeMaster2 · July 25, 2014, 12:14:23 PM

Quote from: 10framer on July 24, 2014, 10:25:40 PM
interesting. i use either ten or five frame equipment and haven't noticed anything similar but my 5 frame stuff is usually splits and by the time they fill two deeps they get split again or converted to 10 frame.
if i never planned on having more than 10 or 12 hives i'd probably run 8 frame equipment.

10framer,
Sounds like you are more into pollination than honey with doing all of those splits. Is that correct?
Jim

Michael Bush · July 25, 2014, 10:43:03 PM

In either you need the frames tight together in the center. On the eight frame this leaves 1 1/4". On the ten frame it's 1". The left over space is a bit more and can lead to some burr on the edges. If you evenly space them both the 10 and 8 frame boxes will have more burr than they will if you put them tight together. I shave 1/8" off of the end bars and put 9 in the 8 frame box and 11 in the 10 frame box. This still leaves 1" in the 10 frame box. It also leaves 1" in the 8 frame box. Another solution is to make a follower board and put one in the 8 frame box to take up some of that 1 1/4" left over space.

sterling · July 27, 2014, 10:56:49 AM

I have both 10 & 8 frame hives and some of each build nice comb and some of each build alot of burr comb and some of each do alot of propolis. I can't say that 8 or 10 frames has a factor in the the way they build comb. Time of year and being crowded or not crowded does have an affect on the way they build out comb. But let me say that burr comb does not bother me. I just remove it if it's in they way of removing or replacing a frame. Neatness in the hive is a beekeeper thing not a bee thing.

Michael Bush · July 27, 2014, 12:12:27 PM

I guess my point was, if you evenly space both of them (which you should NOT) then, yes the eight frame will have more burr comb between frames etc. because the excess space will be greater. If you push them tightly together in the center (which is what you SHOULD do) then there will be no difference except perhaps on the edges. Also, my numbers were basted on the SE US standard of a 13 3/4" box. Mann Lake and Betterbee have 14" boxes and that 1 1/4" will stretch to 1 1/2" which means they will hold 9 frames if you put them in and I probably would, at least until they are all drawn.