Amateur question - What are these creatures in my hive?

[JimW]

Hi there,

I'm very much an amateur, having started with a package of bees in October last year. I've made a few mistakes along the way (such as putting on a third super too soon, which I've since removed), but have sought advice where I can.

They've always struggled a little bit, as they aren't in the best location in terms of sunlight and I'm in the middle of the Sydney suburbs. I was struck with a bit of chalk brood early on, but this only seems to be an issue when it gets very wet.

I largely let the hive go in winter as I didn't want to disturb them and let the heat out. I went and had a look today and found it was full of these white grub type creatures (pictures to be attached soon). They have been sitting on the frames, in the cells, and on the base of the hive box itself.

I've looked up what I can online and I believe they are wax moth larvae, just waiting for the warmer weather to kick in. I'm on here though as I cant seem to find a straight answer - do I freeze them all and start again, re-queen, or let them go and hope for the best? Ironically the hive is doing the best its ever done - there are heaps of bees and they are very active, and there is activity on every frame.

I hacked out what I could see of the grubs/larvae (whatever they are!) and chucked them away. I'd say about 6-20 frames seemed infested. I haven't marked the queen so am not sure where she is. They seem calm enough though so I'd imagine she is still there.

Any help much appreciated! I'm putting some chickens in the same area of the hive next week, which may help control them in future?











Thanks
Jim

[Anybrew2]

Mate, sounds so much like SHB to me.

Without pictures of course. fill in you profile at least ur location it helps so much more.

Cheers
Steve

[JimW]

Thanks, that was my other thought. I have an Apithor beetle trap at the bottom of the hive, but its just expired (approx two weeks ago).

As I'm a new member the forum wont let me post pictures yet. I've emailed them off to the moderator so hopefully they'll add them to my post soon.

Thanks for the quick reply!

[sc-bee]

I am sure you posted the pictures after the first reply. What you have is burr comb was built between the boxes and the queen laid drone brood in it. When you separated the boxes to inspect it tore the comb and exposed drone larvae. Nothing at all to worry about a common occurrence, Seems your bee space may be a little off between boxes and they will fill the extra space.

[hjon71]

sc-bee is right on the money.
Those "creatures" are baby bees. You're good to go.

[Michael Bush]

Your pictures are of bee larvae.  They are bees...

[yantabulla]

Jim, you need to read a few books, or do a basic beekeeping course, or join a club, anything frankly to improve your basic knowledge.

[mdax]

You are just messing around with this post, yea?

if not, how many frames of baby bees did you clear out?

[JimW]

OK well I think my post must be up there with one of the dumbest ever to be seen on this forum.

I'm so used to seeing my bees struggling since I've had them that when I saw these fat white things wriggling around after I took the lid off that I was sure there must be something wrong. They looked much bigger than normal larvae to my eye.

Would you believe that my wife and I have both done a one-day course and read a few books. I guess there is nothing like practical experience.

Luckily I didn't kill too many, and I didn't remove any of the actual frames. Hopefully the bees should be able to recover.

Thanks everyone for your responses.

[Anybrew2]

Never a dumb question here mate, these guys and girls want flame you. Sc-bee is on the money mate all looks great.  The Bee's out this way are Swarming like crazy so I hope you have some extra gear. I have almost run out already. Caught 6 swarms already.

Cheers
Steve

[Intheswamp]

Hey, we all learn.  I'll tell ya about smokers and vehicle interiors one day.  :roll:

While you were looking at the larvae did you happen to see any brown specks on them....mites?

Ed

ETA:  Hopefully you didn't see any mites on the larvae being as I just noticed that you're in Australia. :)

[jayj200]

any way we have a good library on this forum

http://bees.library.cornell.edu/b/bees/browse.html

[Alpal]

I, too, am a newbee. I've read books. I've joined a club. I've talked and asked as many questions as anyone could. But every time I open one of my hives it's a surprising, mysterious and wonderful experience leaving me with many more questions than answers. Kudos for being brave enough to ask and *** on anyone who would give you grief over it. There appears to be much inconsistency and confusion in this realm and I wish you luck in your bee-keeping adventure. I for one am hooked!

[Rmcpb]

How are you going to learn if you don't ask? With fora like this one you can have many mentors on tap and not blunder around as much as we used to when learning.

[JimW]

Thanks all, glad to know I'm not the only newbie on here!

So since my last post I've had a lot of progress. I've added a honey super and have already harvested four of the eight frames. I think we are on a full on honey flow here in Sydney, all the gums and jacarandas are flowering and the bees seem to love it. It seems like they are filling the frames very quickly.

I've also managed to split my one hive into two using a mail order queen, and the second hive is progressing well.

Where I am struggling now is with my first hive. They seem to hate me and want me dead. Maybe because I killed a heap of their babies back in early spring, and then took another chunk of them away (five frames) to live in a new hive. Who knows. All I know is that they really dislike me.

So I have some more newbie questions that maybe some of you more experienced folk could answer.

*Whenever I open my original hive (double brood box, excluder, one honey super), they are at me straight away. When I originally got them as a package they were quite calm, and I could do quick inspections without any protective gear or the smoker. Now they are at my face as soon as I open the hive to the point I cant really see what I'm doing, and yes I'm using a smoker. I've gone down in to the brood boxes a couple of times, but they get riled up that its not a pleasant experience for either of us. I even got stung through my socks despite wearing all the gear.
Is this normal behaviour? Is it because it is a busy time of year and they don't want to be disturbed?  I should point out though that I'm in a backyard in the suburbs, and they haven't actually threatened anyone other than if I'm in there messing with the hive.
Should I attempt to re-queen? The queen isn't marked, so finding her in a double brood box is going to be tough. I've looked up different techniques of dealing with angry hives, and I think I'd need to get some more base boards and try separating the three hive bodies over my backyard to try and find the queen that way, and leave the honey supers for the angry foragers to return to while I look through the other supers.
They do seem to be producing a lot of honey though (9.5kg so far since the start of spring, with another four frames ready soon), so should I just put up with their aggression and hope they calm down in autumn?

Also, when trying to look at the honey frames today, as I pulled them out I seemed to take some big gouges out of the capped comb while lifting them out. I put them straight back though. Will this cause them any major dramas, or will the fix it up themselves? Do I just need to be more careful to cut away the burr comb while doing it, or again am I doing something wrong?

One last thing - I've read another technique to use is sugar water spray instead of smoke. Can anyone recommend this as a better way to calm them down?

Again, possibly dumb questions but better to ask and find out. Any help appreciated!

Thanks
Jim

[Rmcpb]

Jim,

If you have a honey flow your bees should be as quiet as they will get. After saying this we have some hives that are real brutes but if you split them they are bleep cats so a small hive is a bit like a school boy rugby team whereas a large hive is like the All Blacks.

If they are too much for you then requeening is an option or just splitting to make a smaller hive.

If you decide to requeen the put a queen excluder onto your bottom box. if you have eggs in the bottom box a week later she is in the bottom box. If not then put another QE on top of the second box and check for eggs a week later. Once you find the box the queen is in then its easier to find her.

I they are really punchy and you have to go though the hive then split it by moving all the boxes onto an individual bit of board but away from the original position so the hive ends up in many pieces. Put an empty box in the original position for the field bees to come back to. Then go through each box in turn. When finished just put the boxes back in place in the original order.

To avoid burr comb ripping the frames try removing the second frame of a box then put it to the side. Move each subsequent frame away from its neighbour before removing it to stop ripping.

Smoke v sugar.... I tend to stay on the side of a little smoke. Not too much, a little goes a LONG way.

[yantabulla]

Good advice from Rmcpb.  Smoke is your friend. 

[BeeMaster2]

Jim,
I would give them a chance. Correct me if I am wrong, but you are probably using heavy leather gloves that probably have been stung many times. First try washing the gloves. The sting pheromones are all over them and you reach your hand in and irritate them. Every time you crush a bee, every bee around it reacts and comes after you. When you open and close the boxes, be sure to bee as gentle as possible. Every time you kill a bee, it's neighbors become very defensive and remember who caused it until they die, usually 3 weeks.  Smoke the edges and place the box on an angle and then turn them to square them up. I know a super full of honey makes it very hard to do.
Good luck.
Jim

[AllenF]

Smoke your gloves a bit to cover the old bee smells on them as you move form hive to hive.  Smoke is good. 

[JimW]

Thanks for the advice Jim, Yantabulla, Allen and rmcpb. I've just left them alone for the last few days and they seemed to have calmed down (although I did get a random sting on the arm yesterday when I was nowhere near the hive - but I'll put that down to the crazy weather).

Yes I am using heavy gloves, I'm not game yet to try without them. Based on the advice so far, I'll give them a week or so to calm down, then try only using a little smoke and taking it easy with the lid and boxes when going through to avoid killing any.

Cheers
James