Over heard...

[Highlander]

while I was picking up a package of bees today, one of the owners of the place was telling a couple that healthy hives can not freeze!  His point was that something else has to be wrong first.  I kept my mouth shut but was rather concerned  about that idea.  This winter I lost a hive with no mite problem and no apparent other condition. It froze from the North corner and progressed to the south corner in wind chills reaching a sustained 50 below and dropping as low as 70 below with gusts of 50 and 60 mph.  My surviving hive also had frozen bees on the north corner.  I would like to hear opinions on the idea that a healthy hive can not freeze.

[D Coates]

I'm of the opinion a truly healthy hive indeed won't freeze.  I've had them freeze when the populations got too low due to mites, etc. but I wouldn't have called those hives healthy.  I've also had what I considered healthy hives freeze when they ran out of stores.  In hindsight, being low on food could definitely be considered unhealthy too.

[Better.to.Bee.than.not]

well it honestly is just sorta a catch 22 isn't it and common sense? once they have frozen, they are clearly no longer healthy, it is like the saying running water cannot freeze...of course it cannot, because once it is frozen it is no longer running. So yes, healthy hives cannot freeze. It is standard physics though. bees create a certain amount of energy in the form of heat to counter-act the cold. if they produce enough to stay alive, they stay alive, if they do not then they do not...like anything else. If they have enough stores, and numbers, they will produce more heat and thus be able to counter act more cold, if their hive and its setup is insulated enough and weather proofed enough for whatever environment they are in.a weak hive or one that is too small will obviously produce less heat and ability to resist the cold or fall victim to whatever else. If bees normally survive by themselves in whatever area you are in, then it would stand to reason there is obviously at least a possibility kept bees would survive as well as long as the environments are similar surely. Thicker more insulated hives I would think would help, as long as it has air flow and doesn't have moisture problems.

Bees can and do survive in many extremely cold regions though, so they clearly have the potential to survive the cold in less cold regions. They have survived in Alaska for instance and Russia and even colder.

[OldMech]

A healthy hive that has enough stores wont freeze..  Last winter we had the -50 below winds with a few times those 55 mph winds pushing wind chills worse..   I only lost one hive in that mess.  My hives sit out here on the Prairie, some have a few trees behind them. I use tar paper to wrap the hive and put 2" foam on the top of the inner cover, with the tele cover holding that down.
   What WILL freeze bees, is if hey get condensation dripping down on them.
   The breathe, just like we do, and they expel warm air. it rises, hits the top, and condenses into moisture. When this drips back on the bees it kills them, and they begin to turn into a block of ice.

[Better.to.Bee.than.not]

It is important to note that 50 below is actually only -18 F. as it is 50 below freezing and freezing is 32 F. That is actually only a agricultural zone of 5a.  The top of the us gets down to zone 2b which gets to -45 F. and canada/etc. get even colder. 1a gets to -60 F

[Better.to.Bee.than.not]

It is important to note that 50 below is actually only -18 F. as it is 50 below freezing and freezing is 32 F. That is actually only a agricultural zone of 5a.  The top of the us gets down to zone 2b which gets to -45 F. and canada/etc. get even colder, where plenty of people raise bees. 1a gets to -60 F

[tjc1]

I think that "50 below" usually refers to '50 below zero', rather than '50 below freezing (32)'.

[OldMech]

I think that "50 below" usually refers to '50 below zero', rather than '50 below freezing (32)'.

   Yep!

[sc-bee]

I am in a Southern climate and here I always heard... bees do not freeze they starve because they can not break cluster. I guess dead is dead 

[Better.to.Bee.than.not]

heh. the point is, bees survive, ad they do also in places that even get colder. :)
have to admit though I didn't know iowa got that low in temp. and in 1996 the record low was -47 F, so clearly I was wrong.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0113527.html

Michigan got to -51 F record low itself. never would of thought so, myself.

[Highlander]

Interesting responses. My point of reference is how much energy does it take any living thing to create heat and to heat their space.  During the time that I am specifically talking about, for this winter, we had 5 heat sources going in the house, which was exposed to the same blasting winds and cold. A wood/coal fired furnace of 120,000 BTU, a propane forced air heater of 80,000 BTU, an electric room heater and a coal cook stove.  We could reach 67-68 degrees with all those heaters in an old, but north side well insulated, house. And each successive day it took more and more energy to keep it at that temperature .  Based on what I have observed in home and nature, I submit that it is perfectly possible for a healthy hive to freeze, just as we lose well adapted turkeys to that kind of cold as well as deer, squirrels, coyotes, and even horses and cattle can succumb to it.  Exposed skin will freeze in less then three minutes on a healthy human and even covered skin can freeze in less then 5 minutes. Disease, pests and moisture can, and do, incase the likely hood of a hive to die out during the winter but any hive exposed to the right (or wrong) elements can freeze.  Sometimes there is nothing we can do to prevent it. 

[OldMech]

   The actual temps were around -22, and we had winds of up to 55 mph.. so you can check the wind chill here;

http://www.onlineconversion.com/windchill.htm

   Sometimes what is reported is not local conditions, but an average or overall temp or wind chill.  Understand, that this was not SUSTAINED wind chill.. sometimes the wind only blew 20 mph.. and this only lasted about three days, then it warmed up to about -6 and the winds slowed to around 13 mph...   nearly 4 months with temps below 0.. it was a nasty cold winter. I ran out of wood for the first time in 30+ years..  The bees stove piped. Every single hive stove piped straight to the top, leaving their reserves all around them..  They reached the top, and hit the sugar I put on them..  Thats where they were in late February.. munching away on the sugar...   The good thing was, by March when they could move, they had all those reserves they left behind..  turned out to be a great year for me with only a single loss, while the reported loss for the state was 70%.   I sold a lot of bees that year!

[sc-bee]

So as I understand it and limited at best :) The bees can live with inside temps of the hive far lower than some folks imagine. You are not maintaining brood so you don't need the 90's temps you read about. A bee consumes the honey as a carb and shivers to generate heat. As they do the outside bees in the cluster rotate in to stay warm and this process continues. I may have this all wrong and I have no doubt this crowd will let me know  When they get to an area and they are isolated from feed they can not complete this process. So do they starve or freeze ??? Not matter outcome is the same.   
Pa-ta-toe for me Patat-oe for you 
To-ma-toe for me Tomat-oe for you 
But actually it is Tater and Mater.... Who is really right.....we know down here 

[KeyLargoBees]

Amen SC-Bee.....throw in some grits and a few biscuits and we do have it right down here in the south lol

[Michael Bush]

A good strong hive with a large cluster and plenty of food is one thing.  A smaller colony is a different matter.  -50 F is -82 F degrees below freezing...  I also think people with those opinions are often from a warmer climate.  Even in town here, is is enough warmer that spring is two weeks ahead of out in the country and the wind is never nearly as strong...

[Better.to.Bee.than.not]

Honestly it amazes me that animals can survive at all through some of the harshest weather we have in this world, yet they do. They do not have furnaces, heaters, clothing, etc....they live in a tree, or wherever else....some in practically frozen water. If I didn't know some of the science behind it, I probably wouldn;t even believe it...but it is still amazing.