Overwintering Nucs: The Mystery, and the Glory

[texanbelchers]

So, to make it as clear a mud, "nuc" can refer to a small colony or a small (4-5 standard frames wide, normally deep) hive box.

Now, lets throw in a "mini-mating nuc", which use limited numbers of small frames.   

Check out: http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnucs.htm

[Acebird]

Well Tex, a mating nuc is different is it not?

[BeeMaster2]

A mini mating nuc is half the size of a nuc. Usually 5 medium or deep frames that are cut in half so that 2 of them can be placed length wise in a langstroth hive to take the place of one frame. To do this you add a metal insert that rests on 2 full size frames at the center between 2 mini frames.
Jim

[Acebird]

But isn't a mating nuc a temporary thing?  It is not a single small colony put together with the intention of it growing big, unless I don't understand.

[texanbelchers]

Yes, I would think from a single colony standpoint it is temporary.  I think I saw a video of MP running them over winter, but I may be mistaken.  My point is that there is more confusing, similar terminology.

As with most things, beekeeping has a lot of concepts that must be mentally assembled to create a basic understanding.  It is more confusing than some other endeavors because there are different ways many things can be done.  For example, everyone starts with Ohms law in electricity and it is always the same.  How many opinions are there on the "right" way to release a queen or install a package, or make a split?

[sc-bee]

I think this thread finally hit on some of the confusion. When folks speak of overwintering nuc it is different to different folks. In northern areas it is usually not a stand alone 5 frame hive. Is it a nuc when it is stacked two or three boxes high, thus 10 or 15 frames.

So what I am hinting at for discussion, why not place the 10 frame nuc (two stacked 5 framers) in a ten frame box? I understand some of my reasoning but let's hear others...

[sc-bee]

I think you've expressed that very well .............

LJ

It's taken me about a year to figure this out. My current rule of thumb is, if I don't know what to do, and one master beekeeper tells me to do it, I do it and don't obsess over it. .....

It may vary from state to state... what are you calling Master Beekeeper. I find fairly often that a Master Beekeeper is just a beekeeper with another piece of paper. Book knowledge... I know you really meant experienced beekeeper... just pulling your leg a little ;)

[tjc1]

So what I am hinting at for discussion, why not place the 10 frame nuc (two stacked 5 framers) in a ten frame box? I understand some of my reasoning but let's hear others...

My question, too, as a northern beek.

[cao]

So what I am hinting at for discussion, why not place the 10 frame nuc (two stacked 5 framers) in a ten frame box? I understand some of my reasoning but let's hear others...

I think the main reason for the double stacked nuc boxes is that during cold weather it is easier for the cluster of bees to move vertically than horizontally.

[little john]

You guys might find watching the following videos, taken at The UK Honey Show (2013) to be useful in answering those kind of questions.

Code Select Expand

The Sustainable Apiary:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nznzpiWEI8A

Queen Rearing in the Sustainable Apiary:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7tinVIuBJ8

Keeping Bees in Frozen North America:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFanJbaigM4


Hope those of you on the eastern seaboard are handling the snow ok ...

LJ

[BeeMaster2]

LJ,
My wife and I were working on adding trim to my new barn. The snow didn't bother us but then again, we only saw a few tiny flakes. 
Jim

[D Coates]

So what I am hinting at for discussion, why not place the 10 frame nuc (two stacked 5 framers) in a ten frame box? I understand some of my reasoning but let's hear others...

Personally, in a 10 frame box the cluster doesn't have much room to move upward.  There may enough of a population to keep warm but the honey may be on frames outside their cluster especially if it's cold and they're tightly bunched but no stores to move upward into.  Ironically that's when they need it most.  I won't overwinter in single 10 frame boxes for this reason.  In most hives in the wild they're in narrower quarters and move upward.  I'm mimicking more of a vertical set up in this situation.  In a double deep set up they're got the same height to move but a larger population to do so.

[Acebird]

I don't do either but I can see an advantage of a single 10 frame over two five frames stacked if you only have one colony in a cold region.  The two stacked 5 frame boxes have more surface area so the heat loss would be greater.  The bees would have to work much harder to maintain core temperature.  If you have two colonies that you can place side by side then the advantage is the other way.  If the 10 frame was allowed to backfill normally in the fall it would have stores above.  If you just rearranged two 5 frame boxes into a ten frame box you might have a problem.

[Colobee]

In addition to the double 5 over 5, I  have a 10 frame single, sitting atop a double 10 frame (almost a nuc) - all medium frame.  The double has a feeder shim on top( & sugar bricks), then the IC, then a double screen board, topped with the single 10 ( with feeder shim & bricks, & covers). That's just the way a couple struggling hives met the fall, so I decided "why not". These are the remnants of stray swarms, late to re-queen themselves, and I wanted to test the over-winter nuc idea against the Rocky Mountain cold.

As of yesterday, both were doing well - flying with the slight warm up. I suspect the 10 single would be in dire trouble were it not for the auxiliary warmth from below and both would normally starve out, based on years of experience. My bees normally need 3 heavy mediums to overwinter here.

The "5 over 5's" are in a side by side configuration - one stand alone unit, 2 colonies - as previously described.

I probably won't risk an inspection on any of them for another 4-6 weeks. Good flight activity is enough of an indicator for now. I like to wait for a 70* day or two, in the spring, before risking an inspection. I'll continue to monitor the bricks, and replenish as needed. And keep my fingers crossed.

Time will tell on this admittedly very limited experiment, but for now all is good. Obviously the results won't mean much with just 3 "data points" and so many variables.

[derekm]

mass conductance ratio determines survival of all animals in cold climates. From polar bears to arctic foxes to honeybees.
if you are small you need less conductance thus  an arctic fox needs better fur than a polar bear.  Putting nucs together is a way of improving the mass conductance ratio.

read this
Mitchell D  Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and Varroa destructor. Int J Biometeorol. 2015