laying worker shakeout.....another take

[Acebird]

I would assume they know their way back because they have been outside the hive before.

It has been said that a bees memory only last 3 days.  Assuming that is correct then the laying worker must have been outside the hive within the last three days, give or take unless that kind of memory doesn't work that way.  Regardless of how it happens I will take your word for it that it does happen and remember that the next time I dump a hive.

[Michael Bush]

I think they tend to reorient after three days, but that does not mean they have lost their memory, just that reorientation gets triggered.

Huber says they have very good memories:

"While seeking to ascertain the effect of odors upon insects, I found only the bees among which they are worthy of note; that of the honey attracts them particularly; you now that which is left exposed is very soon discovered by those insects. That which is more singular and less known is that they keep for a long time the remembrance of their discoveries. Some bees, that had found honey scattered upon a window sill, came back six months later to seek that which might have been left at the same spot. This observation was made at Yverdon and deserves to be retained as the first proof that we have had that our favorite insects have been granted the gift of memory."--Francis Huber, Letter to Miss Elisa De Portes, Lausanne, Nov. 1, 1831 (page 594 Huber's New Observations Upon Bees Bicentennial Edition)

I assume winter came between the first and the second time or the bees would not live that long, but they seem to remember things the rest of their life.  A hive that has been moved, still has the foragers going back to the old location and then turning to the new location until the day those foragers die.

[Acebird]

Huber says they have very good memories:

I like his explanation.

[rdy-b]

 its not that they find there way back to the hive----laying workers act like queens in the same way that they dont
oriante on daliy bases--the fact is that laying workes are coming into play after queen faliure --some time frames are
of much debate ---what this means if you shake out a laying worker hive from a distace where parent hive was placed
-there are a majority of bees that can and will replace the laying workers (these bees are the field force of the hive )

what needsto be discused here is that the shake out is only going to work if there are an addition of frames of open
brood --it is these pheramones and only these pheramones that will SUPPRESS a laying worker into submision--yes
there are pleanty workers in line to try and be a queen but they fall short of thee task becahse they are simply laying workers -which are nothing new--- RDY-B

[KeyLargoBees]

Even then there is no guarantee.....5 weeks of brood additions and one would think some of the original laying workers would have died off and the problem would solve itself but it seems the ones who died were replaced by new laying workers in spite of the open brood.

I shook them out and did not replace the hive and let the returning bees beg admittance to adjacent hives....it was a chaotic mess but seems to have worked....two smaller NUCS in the same yard as the hive in question seem to have had a significant population boost and I assume the remainder of the bees ended up in one hive or another...there were pathetic clusters of bees at the shakeout spot for 6 hours or so that wouldnt or couldnt fly back and the ants finally overwhelmed them but it was probably only 1-200 bees I am assuming a large % of those were the ladies responsible for the mess....so contrary to previous posts...no they don't all find their way back to the hive. But on the up side I have some very nice drawn comb to distribute among some NUCS that were laboring with drawing on foundation :-)

[Acebird]

I have a question.  Drones don't go through the nurse bee stage so how long after emergence does it take a drone to go outside and orient to the hive?

[rdy-b]

I have a question.  Drones don't go through the nurse bee stage so how long after emergence does it take a drone to go outside and orient to the hive?

The first time it has to poop--   --RDY-B

[Acebird]

Well yeah but maybe before.  In the winter they can go three months.  I am sure it happens before that.

[rdy-b]

 DRones are of no value in winter-so whats the point--
sometimes hives have gone hopelessly drone-if field force is adicate-then the addition of brood
will provide new Young nuresbees that provide a high quality protein bee milk-(as apposed to milk from a old field bee that rejuvenates its cast in the hive) --so this is key -once Young bees can provide high protien-the addition of a mated queen --(best results come from the introduction of a queen cell that hatches in the hive) the queen is feed high quality protien and she starts to lay-she is in the onset of producing open brood-the pheromones of open brood are the supreser to the laying worker--seald Brod provides the
young nurse bees to generate the protein that is needed to jump star the colony to a even keal  ---    RDY-B

[rdy-b]

     Laying workers are by far the most frustrating and time consuming chore a beekeeper
  has to deal with--(next to wax moths -but same category) there is also a big correlation with
time of season we are deciding are strategy's for the manipulations that the beekeeper chases
--most times the bees will decide for you -but not always with laying workers--    RDY-B

[Acebird]

Even then there is no guarantee.....5 weeks of brood additions and one would think some of the original laying workers would have died off and the problem would solve itself but it seems the ones who died were replaced by new laying workers in spite of the open brood.

Rdy-b

Laying workers are by far the most frustrating and time consuming chore a beekeeper
  has to deal with

Jeff, I think you did the right thing, take the honey and dump the bees, only I wouldn't have wasted the 5 weeks of brood.  It is far to easy to make a queen right hive by splitting.  No point in wasting equipment and resources on a hive that can't get it together.

[Dallasbeek]

Brian, at what point do you determine it's a lost cause and stop "wasting" assets?

[Acebird]

I like Jeff's plan except I wouldn't throw any resources their way.  Wait until the population dwindles or more importantly the honey storage stops and then dump.  In my area it is about 60 days if it happened early in the season.  For others that don't have a continues flow through the summer it might only be 30 days or less.  You could argue you should do it the instant it is discovered because the good bees will just join another hive and you will be gaining honey in those hives.
I personally cannot find a queen so I have to find no worker brood and a lot of drones before I could determine if the hive was a laying worker hive.  If you can find a queen and see the multiple eggs I see no harm in doing it right away.  The sooner you do it the sooner you can split another hive and get back where you were for hive count.

[KeyLargoBees]

Remember Ace I dont have a winter so there is no hurry for me and no worry about winter prep...this was a big hive (double deep brood) and three honey supers....also was sort of sentimental...they were from my first cutout.

In any event its fixed now and I ended up with so many bees in the two small nucs I moved them to 10 frame boxes and will most likely have to super them in a week they are so crowded so all is good.