OA Vaporization Recommended Dosage (Possible Changes Coming)

[sc-bee]

There was a thread recently about studies that may say the 1g dose of OA in a vaporizer are ineffective against varroa. I contacted Mr Cameron and he said I could share his correspondence. I can't remember who brought up the recent research but thanks...

Good morning Steve,

I don?t mind you sharing our conversation on a bee forum. I would say that the current legal limit of vaporizing 1 g is totally worthless. I don?t necessarily mean that OA vaporization is a bust, because you start see some control at 2 g and a slightly better effect at 4 g. To be clear though, even after three rounds of treatment at 4 g once per week, we still had average mite loads of about 2 mites/100 bees. We started with high loads, so it did knock it down significantly, but we didn?t see the efficacy you would expect from something like amitraz. However, with resistance issues cropping up with amitraz, it is important to have a few more weapons in our arsenal. All that said, I am not recommending anything, just telling you our research findings. As I said earlier, we do plan to take our research to the EPA to advocate for a label change.

At this time, we are probably still getting our best control with amitraz, though we are starting to have some resistance issues ourselves. Thus, we use OA via trickle and vaporization during the winter and early spring. In Florida we don?t have much of a spring and jump quickly into summer, so if we still need a treatment in the spring before the nectar flows, we use thymol.

We really do try to practice what we preach and we use alcohol washes to sample our apiaries at least every other month to monitor Varroa populations. I feel strongly that frequent monitoring is a critical practice these days, especially after treatment, so you know if what you?ve applied is even working for you.


Best,
Cameron

Cameron Jack, Ph.D.
Lecturer and Distance Education Coordinator
Entomology and Nematology Department
University of Florida
PO Box 110620
1881 Natural Area Drive
Gainesville, FL, 32611
[email protected]

[Ben Framed]

Two out of 100 mite count while using his method via organic is very reassuring for we organic treating folks. Thanking you once again SC. (Steve).  Excellent news! I believe it was Jim (sawdstmakr) who first told us of 4 grams. Thanks to you also Jim.

Phillip Hall

[Ben Framed]

In my opinion this is important news! This explains a lot and may be the reason, or part of the reason, so many are losing hives to Varroa Destructor even though they treat. I suppose that concurs the findings that was theorized in another topic. OAV too hot? Naturally if some of the OAV is lost to decomposition in a (set) too hot vaporizer, a larger dose would be needed to make up for the loss and difference? This ineffectiveness was not the case during the old wand vaporizer days. As studies proved the 1g per box was what was needed and effective, as these older vaporizers heated up slowly and the sublimation was completed before the 372 degree temperature of decomposition was reached. Not to fear, the newer band heaters can be just as effective by lowering the PID setting to the proper temperature. Still retaining your speed of treatment in my opinion. Decide for yourself.

Quoting:

@ ParksMtnApiary back to your original question (OAV too hot?)  I will make an honest effort to answer as best as I can come up with,.  Let me add, This is sure to be disputed. Lol

ScientificBeekeeping.com
Beekeeping Through the Eyes of a Biologist
Oxalic Acid: Heat Vaporization and Other Methods: Part 2 of 2 Parts
According to Randy Oliver in this article 

"How does oxalic vaporization work? In the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics we find that upon heating oxalic acid, the water of hydration boils off first, then at 315?F (157.222 ?C) the oxalic acid starts to sublime (go directly from solid to vapor), and finally at 372?F (188.889 ?C) any oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to formic acid and carbon dioxide. The hot vapor rises within the confines of the hive bodies, and recondenses into tiny crystals that coat everything inside the hive. One of the problems with some vaporizers is that they get too hot too quickly and decompose, rather than evaporate the acid.

"

So I ask, Can Randy be relied on as a competent source of information when it comes to bee research? I dare say yes. Even HP has directed me toward Randys work for information. The man (Randy) has dedicated , I can only dare guess, most of his life to bee research. He has researched the problem of dealing with mites extensively. There are others who make the same claims as Randy almost word for word as quoting from the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. Can this book be relied of for chemist for a quick reference to sure answers? Is this hand book and Randys reference accurate? I would certainly hope so. Have I misunderstood Randys above statement? Very possibly but seems pretty clear to me.

Why is Randys findings so important pertaining to OAV, or should be very important to we beekeepers? I will say because there are too many beekeepers losing hives to mites. Not just because of possible (too hot) set vaporizers but the treatment schedule in which OAV is applied I am thinking.
We are blessed with some very smart and brilliant minded members here at beemaster, Yet even these well educated folks are not Immuned from the destruction of the mite labeled as VARROA DESTRUCTOR. Mites are a silent-deadly, problem killer of our bees and should not be taken lightly or taken for granted by anyone, including myself.

If we go back to Beeboy01s topic that he posted here a year or so ago, (where he conducted an intensive experiment), we will find that he had a severe mite problem hive. We will find even when he used OAV administered properly, (cycle wise, schedule wise), he still had a severe mite problem with this hive for quite some time and a rough battle before finally getting things under control. Another beekeeper, now becoming famous on YouTube here in America, experienced similar results as our Beeboy01 by experimentation and sharing a short video series on his one particular hive . Could it be that a small reason or perhaps even a large reason was because their vaporizer was set to hot rendering a percentage of decomposed OAV to no effect? Again according to Randy Oliver, that can happen..  The Beeboy01 experiment was a real eye opener for me!!!

For what I am saying, and about to say is sure to be rejected even further by some of my friends, fellow beekeepers, and members here but that is ok. One can accept or reject these thoughts stemming from Randys facts as they see fit.  I am simply sharing my thoughts and theories in an attempt to help. My mistake on this topic was asking about the degree of effective formic when reached as OAV is decomposed at 372f to formic and carbon dioxide and suggestion this fromic to continue to aid our bees. Unfortunately my thoughts on these decomposed components took away from what was the important question by you Parks leaving the original question that you ask lost in the shuffle. I apologize to you Parks for that.


Now Parks back to your original post and question. 

I quote; 

"I am looking into Johno easy vap for OAV treatments. Currently using OA dribble method and wanting to speed up the process. Alternate with MAQS. My question is a lot of the vaporizers are getting up to 400-450 degrees F. I?ve read after about 375 degrees OA turns into formic acid and carbon monoxide. Does this hurt the effectiveness of treatment or health of bees? MAQS is formic acid. Anyway, I?ve seen some beeks say this is bad. I think the easy vap and the pro vap all get into the 400-450 deg range. Any help appreciated


"
Your answer Parks according Randy Olivers paper and his information he provided from the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. Say Yes OAV can get to hot,. again quoting Randy "problems with some vaporizers is that they get too hot too quickly and decompose, rather than evaporate"  The good news for your JphnO vaporizer is No, according to JohnOs answer to you in your reply 10. Because that particular brand drops quickly below the threshold to proper sublimation. Leaving Any and all remaining OAV in the proper description of Randy and his chemical book source.
Your reply 10 quoting JohnO

"The temperature controller is set at 440 F and when the OA hits the bottom of the bowl the temperature dips to about 290 F"
That 290f Parks is 143.333? Celsius and well below the decomposition temperature. So remaining OAV is well within the range of sublimation and decomposition.  


But what about the other vaporizers which may also be equipped with a very high initial heat source which may also employ a sealed top, and an added aluminum heat retainer in the Bottom of the cooking pot? Does the temperature drop as quickly as yours? Some of these types have an added metal heat retainer in the bottom just for this purpose of holding the temp as steady as possible and close to the PID set temperature as possible. To retain the set temperature of 230C as long as possible.   Let?s remember what Randy said  At 315?F (157.222 ?C) the oxalic acid starts to sublime (go directly from solid to vapor), and finally at 372?F (188.889 ?C)  ANY remaining OAV WILL decompose!  Now let me add , any decomposed OAV will not benefit our bees.  The question now is for a mathematician. What percentage of OAV is lost to decomposition? This lost percentage will vary from applicator to applicator  depending on where the PID is set.  I was hoping my theory of formic decomposing would benefit our bees.  One of our experts here says not enough formic is developed in this fashion to help.  So I suppose whatever is lost is equal to junk mail lol ? Can vaporizers which start off with a very high heat and equipped with heat retainer bottom still be effective?  Sure they can and are if the PID is set correctly.  Actually I personally prefer this type, maybe as much as the JohnO, a little more expensive but good stuff!  To see if a percentage is lost, and if so, what percentage, I recommend checking your heat banded, sealed top vaporizers through a few experimental cycles and take note of the temperature drop when oxalic is being processed in conjunction with the time cycle and temp between 315?F (157.222 ?C) and 372?F (188.889 ?C) opposed to when cycle ends. as described by Randy Oliver and the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics and do the math.  All a person has to do is set the PID accordingly. If necessary. Simple, easy, and should eliminate the (questionable) problem of QAV and (too hot).  I hope that helps you Parks and possibly others.

Phillip Hall

[TheHoneyPump]

I wonder if the type of vaporizer delivery used makes a difference.  What I am meaning is the hot pot type versus the forced air type.
The hot pot type you put a measured amount of OA powder in it.  Vape that off into the hive until there is no more.
I use my own built forced air type. I do not measure the amount of OA.  I block off big gaps and stuff the nozzle in the entrance.  Run it until vapour is coming out of cracks between the boxes and under the lid.  When all cracks are leaking vapours then I start the count to 20 slowly, aka 20 seconds.  I have no idea how many grams is going into each hive. What I do know is that by forced circulation every bee and every surface is getting coated. The mites have no escape, no safe pocket of dead air space. After the 20 count a rag is stuffed in the entrance and left there for 2 to 5 minutes for full condensation of the vapour onto the bees and hive equipment.  The method is simple works for me and my helpers.  Most people can count, not everyone can measure.  I have not concerns about the results.  Mites are dead and bees are booming.

One thing noted in the shared text that I go against is -- IMHO it is the "once per week" standard that I want to call out as actually the completely useless part.  To be effective at catching them all, do some basic math based on the way the queen lays and the timing of each stage of brood development. For the OAV treatment to touch every mite, treatment is necessary once every 4 days, perhaps 5 days if you want to stretch it.  At 7 days 30% of the newly emerged mites are back into the cells and protected again under new caps before your next OAV visit.
*** If you want better results using OAV, try the regimen of every 4 days for 7 cycles = 28+ days treatment period. If a person thinks that is too often or too much, then I would suggest some alternative treatment method would be better suited to that person and they stay away from OAV; such as alternating between MAQS or ApiVar or Thymol based treatments.

Also an off topic curiosity question for those with SHB issues.  Does OAV or Formic have any effect at reducing the beetles?

..

[Beeboy01]

I'm with Honey Pump about treating only once a week with a OAV not being adequate enough. I'm treating every third day till my 24 hour drop is under 15 mites. It's a little time intensive to treat then count the next day but it gives a quick handle on how the treatment regime is working. I'm going into my third year with my home made vaporizer in which I incorporated a thermal switch that shuts off the heater at 350 degrees with no problems yet. Bumped up the amount of oxalic acid I'm using per treatment to 4 grams for a double deep last fall with great results.
   Haven't seen any effect on small hive beetles except as an irritant which drives them out of the hive down through the screened bottom boards where they gather on the lunch trays I use under the SBBs.

[Ben Framed]

Your set up sounds really nice and efficient for a large scale operation. I like what you described. Once while researching different applicators, I was lucky enough to see a setup kind of like what you described. I did not however look for details as I was looking for something for the hobby needs at that time. Thank you for sharing your setup description Mr HP very interesting.

Phillip Hall

[Ben Framed]

I agree beeboy01. While treating, I do every fourth day as described by Coolbees, and now Mr HP.

Phillip Hall

[Ben Framed]

>.Also an off topic curiosity question for those with SHB issues.  Does OAV or Formic have any effect at reducing the
   beetles?

Not as far as I can tell. No not one bit lol. The reason as was described to me, is because the beetle has a hard exoskeleton as do bees, rendering the burn of OAV useless to SHB. On the other hand, varroa destructor has a soft unprotected outer tissue which is open season for OAV against this pest. Just another reason that immune build up is out of the question for mites when it comes to OAV; Useless they can mutate and grow a hard outer exoskeleton. Which I doubt. I have studied formic also, but yet to use it. Mr Live Oak was so dead set against it, it scared me lol.

Phillip Hall

[Ben Framed]

I have an off subject curiosity question also Mr HP. Why does formic seem to kill queens as some here on the forum suggested? What makes the queen more susceptible than the other bees, (if that information was correct)?

Phillip Hall

[TheHoneyPump]

I have an off subject curiosity question also Mr HP. Why does formic seem to kill queens as some here on the forum suggested? What makes the queen more susceptible than the other bees, (if that information was correct)?

Phillip Hall

At risk of distracting from the OAV title and subject of the thread, I will try one and one only post wrt Formic here.  If you want to go deeper in discussion we should take to another thread under the Disease and Pest control category  ...


My opinion only.... Call the following thoughts empirical or conjecture, whichever you wish:

I would not say that formic kills the queens. I would say that the effects of formic may result in her death. Whether that be indirectly or directly. Lets try to explain:

We know that much communication in the beehive, particularly the needs of the queen and brood is done by pheromones.  Formic is a fumigant treatment and the duration is for a week+. The fumes are strong and lingers. There is little stretch ones thinking that the formic can mask and disrupt the pheromone communication in the hive during the treatment period. Support of this thought is evidenced by observation of the effects on the brood nest during and following Formic treatment. Queens will completely stop laying for days while the formic is in place. There are obvious breaks and gaps in the brood pattern corresponding to when the treatment was in place. Emergency queen cells start appearing while the queen is still there and everything else in the hive is otherwise normal. As the days go by and the fumes concentration subsides she may resume laying. Some do not resume at all until days after the formic pads have been removed completely. Again, I believe this is caused by the disruptive effects on pheromones communications in the hive. Some queens decide it is just untenable and up and take off (crawl out, leave) or the bees loose track of her killing her or neglecting her. They just disappear. Exactly why or how, I do not know.  The only change or difference is the presence of formic acid fumigant treatment.  These problems do not always happen but often enough (30+%) that I avoid formic and use other treatments. Yes, yes, the temperature range of application is important and I am certainly guilty of making mistakes of using it when the sun has been hot.  I am saying that I see these effects in the supposedly ideal conditions often enough to have set my opinion on it.

All that said I do still use formic, but it is by exception and I would take steps to mitigate said effects. The exception case is a very high infestation that I have pretty much completely written off the hive as the walking dead. I may be feeling good that day and that they deserve a chance. The hive gets closed in with screens in the evening.  Alkatraz style;  No one gets in and no one gets out. It stays screened for the entire treatment duration. Their queen is removed and caged. She is safely banked elsewhere for the week. If the bees survive the treatment, and the new mite sample gives them a pass, then a new queen is introduced or their banked queen is reintroduced at the end of it. In other words, imho Formic is best used when no queen is present. If you are planning on requeening anyways then consider that Formic could be used as a pre-introduction treatment strategy.

OAV is also a very strong in vapour form, however by contrast it condenses onto the bees and combs and is gone in a matter of minutes. A very short duration. It is not in the air long enough to disrupt the pheromone communication to the point of causing problems.  In an hour or so everything in the hive is mostly back to normal.  I have not ever had any concerning queen or brood problems following OAV treatment.  I have had weird otherwise inexplicable problems after using formic.

That is just my take on it. Others experiences may vary.
Do what you will, just take care of your bees OK. ;)
Hope that makes sense.  Hope that helps, somehow.

[Ben Framed]

Very well explained and much appreciated. As you, I do not wish to get off topic here that is why I mentioned the above. As you mentioned formic earlier. I again agree if fromic is discussed further it should be in a new topic. A topic which I have not desire to open. lol. Once again, thank you Mr HP.

Phillip Hall

[Beeboy01]

Get explanation on formic acid, thanks. One area of oxalic acid that I've been curious about is using it to determine the mite load in a hive similar to an alcohol wash or a sugar shake which are accepted count methods. There would have to be a way to catch the mite drop after a set period of time post treatment. I have been using screened bottom boards with lunch trays under my hives but the design isn't commonly available or universally found in bee keeping which is where a large study would need to occur. Using a forced air applicator similar to HP's and coming back the next day to count would be an ideal way to get a handle on the mite load in a larger bee yard if there was some basic data to use for comparison. It's beyond my ability but would be a interesting study to compare the different ways to count mite load with oxalic acid treatment included. Just a thought that has been in the back of my brain for a while. 

[CoolBees]

I agree beeboy01. While treating, I do every fourth day as described by Coolbees, and now Mr HP.

Phillip Hall

I really prefer OAV every 3 days for the following reasons:

- Mite life-cycle studies that I've read
- the math related to those studies.
- my own Documented mite drop, from different schedule tests

Also note: for anyone that doesn't know, I've had a nasty time with Mites in my area, so I've had lots of practice. It's getting better though.

With that said - my work schedule doesn't really allow a 3-day treatment schedule. So I settled for 4-day/3-day/repeat schedule. ... in simple terms that's Sundays and Thursdays. That schedule seems to give nearly optimal results for me.

I do usually use 1 level "scoop" (that came with the provap) of OAV per 8 frame medium box. That seems to work best,based on my observations. I confess - I don't remember what the "Scoops" actual measurement is. But as I recall, that's a lot more OAV than they advised.

@HP - I really like the sound of your forced-air applicator.

[Ben Framed]

TheHoneyPump, Is this similar to what you use?

https://youtu.be/1RKcWVvqWIE

[TheHoneyPump]

Similar yes, but my unit is much more compact.
The application method, effects, complete penetration to all areas of the hive as in the video are on point. 

[Ben Framed]

Similar yes, but my unit is much more compact.
The application method, effects, complete penetration to all areas of the hive as in the video are on point.

Now this is the way to treat bees! lol. You larger commercial keepers have it figured out. I would think this would be a must for you guys. I would not mind having one myself! lol 
Phillip