I am stumped...

spafmagic · April 17, 2020, 04:45:25 PM

A few days after the only Hive that I own swarmed, I decided to pinch all of the queen cells that I could find and go get a mated Queen from my local bee supply store. When I placed the queen cage in the hive, they gave all the signs that they liked her. The queen was marked as well. A few days later I checked and saw that she was released, so I took the queen ring off and the queen cage out. A few days later, a family member witnessed a bit of a frenzy going on outside of the hive. Today I decided to see if there were any eggs whatsoever. I discovered that I missed a queen cell. Looking through the entire hive oh, I found an unmarked Queen on the second to last frame that I checked.

I'm curious as to whether or not they could have cleaned the mark off of her back, or killed Queen I gave them after giving me false hopes that they liked her, or if the frenzy that happened yesterday was a mated Queen returning.

**edit**
Or maybe, I got lucky and the queen mated and came back relatively in the same day?

Ben Framed · April 17, 2020, 05:05:53 PM

Did you make sure the marked queen was indeed gone as far as marks are concerned? In other words, are you sure the unmarked queen that you found was the only queen? Usually professional queen sellers mark their queens with adequate paint that will not come off that fast.
There were several, a few days later, posted. It "could be" that your new marked queen swarmed since you left a capped queen cell undisturbed?

Phillip

van from Arkansas · April 17, 2020, 05:32:58 PM

I gave them after giving me false hopes that they liked her, or if the frenzy that happened yesterday was a mated Queen returning.

Magic, the false hopes that you were referring to are all to real, not false. The queen cage was most likely surrounded by nurse bees that indeed show acceptance and will feed the queen. It?s the older bees that reject the queen, happens to the best of us. The guard bees figure out the queen is caged so don?t bother with her until you or the bees release the queen. Then the queen is killed that previously was surrounded by accepting nurse bees.

Brother Adam suggested 50 percent of all queens raised are killed. I have to agree. Magic, you did nothing wrong, yes the bees showed acceptance but the queen cell reins supreme and the guard bees will defend their own genetics over a bred stranger queen.

The other day, I direct released a mature queen into a hive with queen cells. The bees tore down the queen cells accepting the new queen so this raises the question why? The answer is I direct released a mature, proven queen that showed no signs of weakness to the guards bees. There is a lot of difference between a bred queen and a mature proven bred queen.

Van

spafmagic · April 17, 2020, 07:08:20 PM

Quote from: Ben Framed on April 17, 2020, 05:05:53 PM
Did you make sure the marked queen was indeed gone as far as marks are concerned? In other words, are you sure the unmarked queen that you found was the only queen?

Yes, I looked through the entire hive.

Ben Framed · April 17, 2020, 08:52:35 PM

Food for thought and questions.

The newly introduced mated queen was accepted in spafmagics case, just as Vans was accepted. The difference is in one case the cell was not torn down and in Vans case the cells were torn down. Is it possible that the bought queen left just as the original queen did leave, making room for the bees ultimate original choice? Is this beyond the realm of possibilities? Or could it be, the bees just simply superseded the new queen. And knocked her off just a few days after full acceptance? Fair question?

Bees multiply and make honey, it is natures way. She very well may have swarmed. Especially if she had yet to start laying being already thinned down? I do not know. lol
Either way, he still has a hive and that is a good thing!

Phillip

Ben Framed · April 17, 2020, 09:44:10 PM

This just came out today! On the same lines as this topic about acceptance of a queen which the colony already has queen cells. This is from David at Barnyard Bees. He handles queens by the hundreds if not thousands each year! Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/ILdq3-WX3Mg

van from Arkansas · April 17, 2020, 09:54:27 PM

Ben, agreed with your text above. I have not looked at the video yet, but will soon. Yes, a swarm is certainly possible as reason for missing queen. There are very few absolutes with bees. As one beek on this forum texted, the bees dont read the books.

Ben Framed · April 17, 2020, 10:01:14 PM

Thank you Mr Van, I knew you would know. I can always count on your unreplaceable experience and knowledge for solid answers.

Phillip

spafmagic · April 17, 2020, 10:42:41 PM

Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 17, 2020, 05:32:58 PM
...The queen cage was most likely surrounded by nurse bees that indeed show acceptance and will feed the queen. It?s the older bees that reject the queen, happens to the best of us. The guard bees figure out the queen is caged so don?t bother with her until you or the bees release the queen. Then the queen is killed that previously was surrounded by accepting nurse bees.

...and the guard bees will defend their own genetics over a bred stranger queen.

Funny thing is, before I saw your response, I checked another hive... one I take care of for someone. It was a split from another hive of his. ((MEAN ASS bees. They don't care about smoke, they just keep bopping the back of my hood regardless.)) Both the parent hive and the split had queen cells that either had been hatched or killed, but none had a queen come back in a good while. There was no brood at all, and I assumed the worst. That both hives' queens may not have made it. So we requeened them.

Then something VERY similar happened. The split's marked queen had been fed in her cage for a week, but the girls didn't eat out the candy and release her. So without thinking, I direct released her and immediately she was getting balled up. I took out a couple frames to observe for a moment, picking out the frame she was on. On the frame were fresh worker brood in the process of being capped.

Long story short, I managed to save the queen and left the split hive alone. They apparently had a queen return. The parent hive DID eat their introduced queen out of the cage. The upper brood box is FULL of stores, mostly honey. I did see some eggs in the bottom brood box, on one of the frames. If the queen is still alive in there, I didn't see her, but would have only been released recently.

spafmagic · April 27, 2020, 01:12:27 PM

Ok... here's an update... I'm still stumped, somewhat. I found a big fat Queen in my hive, but no brood, and no eggs. I'm thinking on giving it another week, to see if eggs or brood magically appear, before attempting to requeen again.

Any thoughts would be appreciated...

*edit*
On a side note, they're not working the empty frames I put in there. They are merely drawing out the frames surrounding the empty ones making them deeper. The empty frames are wax coated plastic Foundation.

TheHoneyPump · April 27, 2020, 01:34:35 PM

How much time are you allowing for these queens to do their thing before disturbing them? Such as number of days from cage placement to checking for release and eggs. Such as number of days from splits and queen cells to checking for eggs. Checking too soon actually causes more problems and extends the timeline. If there is little brood in the hive(s), you know there are queens in progress of getting established, and you are not in there for purpose of managing hive size for swarming or honey flow storage space, then it is best to stay out. You could and should leave them alone for up to 3 weeks then go look for sheets of capped brood. Nothing is going to happen in the hive during that time which requires attention or interventions - except if there is a strong flow on then stack some honey supers on. We are curious, but when dealing with getting queens established; we cannot rush them and frankly there is absolutely nothing we can do to help them other than stay out be patient and give them time.
As for drawing out of new frame(s), place the new frame between two honey frames that are mostly capped honey. They will continue to extend uncapped honey cells. If the frames are capped they will work on the new frame.

Hope that helps!

spafmagic · April 27, 2020, 01:51:27 PM

Quote from: TheHoneyPump on April 27, 2020, 01:34:35 PM
How much time are you allowing for these queens to do their thing before disturbing them? Such as number of days from cage placement to checking for release and eggs. Such as number of days from splits and queen cells to checking for eggs.

To answer that question... when I requeened a few days after my hive swarmed, believing that I clipped all of the queen cells, I left the hive alone for 5 days, long enough for them to have eaten the candy plug away. That's when I saw the unmarked Queen and not the queen I put in. I came back to the hive 10 days later (today) to check for brood and eggs, finding none.

It brought me to the conclusion that she might have only just got back from being mated. Which is why I initially I thought of leaving it alone for another week.

As for everything else that you said, I will keep it under advisement. =^_^=