Hive Memory?

[Kris^]

An earlier thread asked the question of whether a colony can recognize the beekeeper.  I've noticed something about my hives' behavior that makes me wonder whether a colony DOES have a collective memory.

Through the winter and in the spring, I stop the entrance to my hives down.  Because my hives are placed two to a pallet, I leave the opening along the outer walls of the hive, as far separated from each other as possible.  I start my pakages this way, too.  Later in the season I open the entrances all the way.  However, the bees tend to continue to prefer entering and exiting the hive from the place where the small entrance was.  In fact, when they beard, the beard begins at the location of the original opening, spreading upward from there even before spreading out.  Several generations of bees come and go through the summer, so it's unlikely that the bees in there now ever saw the hive entrance stopped down in that place.  Yet, as a whole, they prefer it.

Could it be that the colony as a whole has a memory of where the entrance used to be?  This would seem to be a different phenomenon than foragers returning to the place a moved hive was located, because it doesn't involve individual bee learning behavior.  What I'm thinking might be happening is that the bees of previous generations left chemical pathways or markers through the original entrance that future generations simply follow.  Is this the creation of a memory?  How would this process be any different than the neural or chemical pathways created in our own brains when a memory is created?

I once read a book by Douglas Hofstadter called "Godel, Escher and Bach."  It was a quite involved treatise on self-referential logic systems, and the creation of complex design through simple recursive rules.  One of the examples he discussed was that of an ant colony, in that while an individual ant may be intelligent not at all, the colony as a whole, through the interactions and feedback among all the individuals, exhibits some sort of intelligence.  I tend to think of my bees the same way; the individual bee is important only insofar as there are sufficient numbers of them to keep the colony surviving.  The queen is not the "thinking bug" (to borrow a phrase from Starship Troopers) micro-managing the behavior of the colony.  The behavior is dictated by pheromones exuded by the queen, brood, and the workers themselves, in a way we don't completely understand.  Kinda like we don't really understand how the brian works, or why sometimes it doesn't work right.   :)   Or the workings of society itself, for that matter.   :(

Any other thoughts on these Saturday morning mental meanderings?  (And no, I didn't have too much to drink, drop, smoke or rub-into-my-belly last night!)

-- Kris

[Understudy]

An earlier thread asked the question of whether a colony can recognize the beekeeper.  I've noticed something about my hives' behavior that makes me wonder whether a colony DOES have a collective memory.

Oh boy here we go again

Through the winter and in the spring, I stop the entrance to my hives down.  Because my hives are placed two to a pallet, I leave the opening along the outer walls of the hive, as far separated from each other as possible.  I start my pakages this way, too.  Later in the season I open the entrances all the way.  However, the bees tend to continue to prefer entering and exiting the hive from the place where the small entrance was.  In fact, when they beard, the beard begins at the location of the original opening, spreading upward from there even before spreading out.  Several generations of bees come and go through the summer, so it's unlikely that the bees in there now ever saw the hive entrance stopped down in that place.  Yet, as a whole, they prefer it.

From what I read you never completely closed the outer wall entrances. So they will continue to orient themselves to that. I completly closed my bottom entrances. It took a little over a day for my bees to realize there was a top entrance.

Could it be that the colony as a whole has a memory of where the entrance used to be?

no

This would seem to be a different phenomenon than foragers returning to the place a moved hive was located, because it doesn't involve individual bee learning behavior.  What I'm thinking might be happening is that the bees of previous generations left chemical pathways or markers through the original entrance that future generations simply follow.  Is this the creation of a memory?

If you are in a mall you are not familar with(no exit signs or maps) the best way to found a exit is to follow the flow of people. I usually prefer to follow the cute ones.
They go in and out there because they can. If they don't have to change why should they. The new bees getting ready to forage simple see where the other bees come in and out from. Is it a memorey? Sure to the individual bee.

 How would this process be any different than the neural or chemical pathways created in our own brains when a memory is created?

Because you asked about a collective group memorey not an individual memorey.

I once read a book by Douglas Hofstadter called "Godel, Escher and Bach."  It was a quite involved treatise on self-referential logic systems, and the creation of complex design through simple recursive rules.  One of the examples he discussed was that of an ant colony, in that while an individual ant may be intelligent not at all, the colony as a whole, through the interactions and feedback among all the individuals, exhibits some sort of intelligence.  I tend to think of my bees the same way; the individual bee is important only insofar as there are sufficient numbers of them to keep the colony surviving.  The queen is not the "thinking bug" (to borrow a phrase from Starship Troopers) micro-managing the behavior of the colony.  The behavior is dictated by pheromones exuded by the queen, brood, and the workers themselves, in a way we don't completely understand.  Kinda like we don't really understand how the brian works, or why sometimes it doesn't work right.   :)   Or the workings of society itself, for that matter.   :(

One of the points of GEB is Lewis Carroll's "What the Tortoise Said to Achilles" which is a older version of Monty Python's The Argument Skitin which the point is never made because of a endless loop of nonsense.

The queen is a thinking bug. She has to decided if the bees need more pollen, nector, or other stuff. While this may seem like a bit of a stretch I am borrowing this from ants in which the queen will also make such decisions. The queen gives a simple order how the workers fullfill it is up to them. It is usually easier to send more labor to a heavy lifting task than it is to send less. So when one bee finds pollen or nectar she tells the hive where and how much. Those items let the other bees know how many need to go . In the end the queen gets what she wanted. The workers aren't idiots either if th queen gets sick or hurt the workers will replace her. It is simply a matter of survival.

Any other thoughts on these Saturday morning mental meanderings?  (And no, I didn't have too much to drink, drop, smoke or rub-into-my-belly last night!)

-- Kris

You do this to my brain early on a Saturday morning. Into the penalty box for you. You can't come out until this thread disappears from this page. Check to see if someone is spiking your coffee. :)

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[KONASDAD]

animals go a way because they know the route. Usually the path of least resistance in a biological manner. Which way costs less calorically, or safety wise for example. Generations of deer will use the same pathways year after year. Is it possible they're are left over scents to "show the way?" I would expect some residual markers to be honest. I dont personally believe there is a collective memory, rather a collective primordial instinct based on survival. This results in behavior patterns which we beleive is intelligence. Now off to do something that wont give me a headache. Fascinating stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Brian D. Bray]

>>Kinda like we don't really understand how the brian works, or why sometimes it doesn't work right.

this brian works from a wheelchair, although his brain doesn't always work right.