Question about number of frames per box

[Drone]

Hey folks!

I'm just getting started with my first 2 new hives this spring, plus a used (and abused) colony that we picked up over the winter. I will be buying 2 nuc's from a local bee farm.

My question has to do with the amount of frames to use in a 10 frame hive. My supplier of woodenware and bees suggested using 9 frames. This makes sense for the honey supers, but I don't see the advantage of 9 in the hive body. Why would I want to decrease the availabe area for brood by 10%?

So, back to the question...

If I have 10 frames in the hive body, is it OK to have 9 in the honey supers? Would the bees have a problem with the frames not lining up? It would seem easier for them to travel through the hive with equal frames throughout.

Also, I do not plan to use a queen excluder and my question has more to do with what makes the bees happy as opposed to honey production, etc.

I would love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks!

-John

[Finsky]

It makes only troubles which you use 9/10 frames in box. There is no reason for that.

[wayne]

  As I understand the idea the 9 frame setup alows the bees to draw the comb a little deeper and that makes it a little stronger. That said if you follow the example of a few decades of beeks, you can stay with the 10 frames.
  As for mixing the frame numbers from box to box, I like to keep things simple. But I don't see where it should be a major problem.

[Belzabeya]

I agree with Wayne.

[Finsky]

  As I understand the idea the 9 frame setup alows the bees to draw the comb a little deeper and that makes it a little stronger. .

I do not agree. They do not make brood cells longer. Bees make brood cells allways same lenght. The honeycells around broods cells will be swollen and it makes only harm to nursing.
The frames against walls we be too thick and bees must shorten them before queen may lay eggs into them.

The honey cells must be shortened too if bees take them for use.

So to keep minus one frame in brood box makes only vain work for bees when thei lenghten cells and then shorten them.

***************

In honey boxes I keep minus one frame becase honey combs are then thicker.
You must allways start with 10 foundations and when cells are normal, you may take one frame off.

.

[TwT]

in the brood area alway use as many as you can put in 10 in 10 frame hive, on supers if you just are starting with foundation use 10 frames also if you was to use 9 frames of foundation they will make a mess and not all frames be drawn out correctly, only time to use 9 frames in a super is if you have the frames drawn out already, the reason I run 9 frames in my supers because the bee's will draw the cells out farther (past the top bar) which make it easier to cut the capping off.... 

[Finsky]

Often 9/10 deep frames must be used because bees make combs too thick. I you put foundation in the middle of ready combs, bees like lenghten ready cells. Foundation cells will be too short. When I try to push combs back, there is no space there.  Too loose frame gaps make same result.

b: I put foundation between two brood combs. It is its heavy flow, bees draw quickly foundations and they cap honey. Queen is not anxious to lay in brand new cells.

Every extra dimension in brood combs disturbe checking of brood area: fat cells, drone cells, burr, extra combs.

Often I put thick points together and crush union point with knife. Honey flows and bees clean the he case.When I next look the point, bees have straighten combs and have made normal gap.

.

[Drone]

OK, good info.

Finsky and TwT - If I may clarify, you always use 10 frames in the brood area for the reasons you stated. You will use 10 frames of foundation in honey boxes, but you remove one after the comb is fully drawn. If starting with drawn comb, you will use 9 frames in the honey supers. Is that right?

Wayne and Belzabeya - When you say you like to keep things simple, do you mean you keep the same number of frames in all boxes (hive bodies and supers)? If so, do you use 9 or 10 frames?

Does anyone think the bees have a problem with (or get annoyed by) the mismatched frames between the 10 frame hive body and the 9 frame honey supers. I'm not really sure how much traveling up and down they do, so it's probably not an issue.

-John

[TwT]

OK, good info.

Finsky and TwT - If I may clarify, you always use 10 frames in the brood area for the reasons you stated. You will use 10 frames of foundation in honey boxes, but you remove one after the comb is fully drawn. If starting with drawn comb, you will use 9 frames in the honey supers. Is that right?

I use only nine when I use drawn comb

Does anyone think the bees have a problem with (or get annoyed by) the mismatched frames between the 10 frame hive body and the 9 frame honey supers. I'm not really sure how much traveling up and down they do, so it's probably not an issue.

-John

I have never seen any problems,  some say they dont like it because the frames dont line up, my bee's dont care, they do just as good as if I was using 10 frames when it come to honey production it is just easier for me to uncap 9 frames supers because the capping is drawn out past the top bar of the frames....

[Finsky]

but you remove one after the comb is fully drawn. If starting with drawn comb, you will use 9 frames in the honey supers. Is that right?

Yes. But if I use Langstroth frames as supers, I use 10/10 frames.

Does anyone think the bees have a problem with (or get annoyed by) the mismatched frames between the 10 frame hive body and the 9 frame honey supers. I'm not really sure how much traveling up and down they do, so it's probably not an issue.

I have never asked. They just work for  me.  8-)

[thegolfpsycho]

Bees just aren't that fussy.  Have you seen some of the places they choose to locate themselves?  The combs don't line up at all, but bee space is maintained.  Thats the key.  It's the reason to use 10 frames of foundation, and pack them together.  If you give them more space, they will use it to do what THEY want.  What they want, is not what you want if your planning on harvesting honey, inspecting the brood nest, yada yada yada.  Spacing drawn comb in the supers is to make harvesting easier, but leaving out a frame can lead to a mess if not spaced well.  I threw a super on a hive for the bees to clean out after extracting.  I didn't realize I had left a frame out, and there was a small flow going on from some weeds that were blooming.  They quickly built new comb in the open spaces, attached it all over the place, including the frames below, and then fought me vigorously when I removed it.  They ignored the drawn comb.  Make sure everything is there and push them together

[Michael Bush]

>My question has to do with the amount of frames to use in a 10 frame hive. My supplier of woodenware and bees suggested using 9 frames. This makes sense for the honey supers, but I don't see the advantage of 9 in the hive body. Why would I want to decrease the availabe area for brood by 10%?

And why would you want that uneven comb that rolls queens and makes it difficult to manage.  With ten you get nice flat combs in the brood area.  With nine you get fat spots where the honey is and the brood is indented.  I tried nine in the brood nest and went back to ten.  In fact I started shaving the end bars down to 1 1/4" and putting 11 in the brood nest.  Now that I'm doing eight frame boxes I put nine in the brood nest.  I get 12.5% more brood.  :)

>If I have 10 frames in the hive body, is it OK to have 9 in the honey supers?

Sure.  Or even eight.  But I wouldn't do it until the combs are drawn and you're reusing them the next year.  They will mess things up less if you put ten frames of foundation in and nine frames of drawn combs.

> Would the bees have a problem with the frames not lining up?

No.

> It would seem easier for them to travel through the hive with equal frames throughout.

It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to them moving throughout the hive.

>Also, I do not plan to use a queen excluder and my question has more to do with what makes the bees happy as opposed to honey production, etc.

The bees will not care.

[Kirk-o]

I go with ten myself its a even number and it works good
kirk-o

[Brian D. Bray]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Putting less frames in the super than what it is designed for is asking for problems.  Burr comb, unevenly drawn comb, spanning comb, etc.  Why ask for more problems?  Use the correct number.  When it comes to beekeeping Uniformity in use and size of eqipment beats all other concepts hands down.

[buzzbeejr]

we use 10 but we have never really experimented with it we just keep the 10 frames as evenly spaced as possible.

[Finsky]

we use 10 but we have never really experimented with it we just keep the 10 frames as evenly spaced as possible.

I have nursed bees 45 years.  Somethimes I have only 9 frames to give into 10 frame box when I am on outer beeyard.  That makes only troubles to me.  I have enough experience what to do. Issue is very simble. If you do not believe, try youself. You get answers during a month when it is honeyflow. When  it is early summer, bees try to make drones in every free gap.

The most important is that brood frames are easy to handle, because abnormalities in frood frame makes that bees will be crushed when I lift frames. And I a see no reason to run with 9/10 broof frames.

Langstroth combs I use to end as brood combs and that is why I do not want thick brood combs. Bees shorten  however brood cells to the size of 10/10.

.

[Michael Bush]

I recommend crowding them together in the middle.  I don't space them out evenly.