Another equipment question???

[mlewis48]

  Hey everyone,
  First, I want to wish everyone a Safe and a Happy Holiday!! And please, bring our troops home safe! But, after my posting "what does a beekeeper do in the winter?' I took alot of your advise,building new equipment,fixing damaged equipment, and of course a couple of Margariatas! Looking at the catalogs and making a wish list for Santa. One of the things that I don't have are Queen Excluders. Are they worth buying or are they a waste of money and not worth the space that they will take up in my barn. I know that it is winter and I won't need them for months to come. And the slanted bottom boards, are they worth buying or making? And what advantage are they to the hive? Like I said before, I have lots of questions and I hope that with all of the experiance that is out there, it will help me grow to the level that I want to be at. and last but not least, What is a good book for a Rookie to add to my list for Santa?
                                   Happy Holidays!
                                    Marcus :-D

[KONASDAD]

Most beeks, myself included, dont use queen excluders except to keep newly installed or swarm queens in a new hive. If the queen needs more room to lay, who am I to disagree by putting in an excluder. I think you mean slatted bottom racks and yes i lik'em a lot. They definately help w/ temp control in both summer and winter. The brood patterns are larger, especially in early spring. A slatted rack w/ a screned bottom board combo works nicely w/ seemingly no down sides and lots of up side.  I also use a vented telescoping top which worked great in summer and I'll get back to you in april w/ how they work in winter.  Books.... search the site as there aare plenty of books out there. I personally would suggest a sunscription to the bee mags, I prefer American Bee Journal over Bee culture but both are great. I have read CC Millers 50 yrs..., historically intersting(he paid $7 for a "box" of bees just after the civil war. I paid $70 for a deep in 2006). There are others out there and I have read many, but I find myself using this site in lieu of actually reading the books for emergent info. I tend to read'em on vacation. The person in the seat next to me on the plane is always shocked!

[fcderosa]

The slatted racks are great, you'll notice a decline in bearding.  The queen excluders are worthless.  I never had great harvests till I got rid of them. :-D

[Scadsobees]

I have SBB's, so don't use the slatted rack BB.

Queen excluders have a place, depending on your beekeeping style.  Never use them with foundation, this is where they cause problems most of the time.

Most of the time,though, if they have drawn comb, they will ignore a queen excluder and pass through fine.  Many people have top entrances with queen excluders.

I happen to have some supers that are foundationless, so the bees drew them out as large cell storage comb/drone comb.  The queen will pass through 2 full supers or more to lay in that comb, so then a QE is really indispensible.

However, if you use foundation everywhere, and all of your supers are worker size comb and you have one full so far...then you probably won't need a QE.

They are nice for other stuff though...limiting a queen for whatever reason(limiting her to find her if you have trouble, swarms as mentioned above,...), draining cut comb, window screens to keep out large rodents, etc.

Rick

[Understudy]

I use screened bottom boards (SBB) so I don't use the slotted racks. Brian should post he speaks very highly of them. I don't have a bias against them. For me it is an either or situation.

I very much believe in having something on the bottom that is either an SBB or slotted rack bottom board.  It helps the bees maintain the temprature of the hive in the hotter months and cuts down on bearding. If you have one on in winter you should place a tray or similar to block the cold air from getting in. I firmly believe in them.

The beekeeping bible is called the ABC&XYZ of Bee Culture.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Brian D. Bray]

I recommend using 2 slatted racks, 1 on the bottom of the hive between the lower brood box and the bottom board and the other between the top brood box and the honey supers in place of a queen excluder.  One point that I think is very important is not to limit the broodchamber.  Give the queen 4 mediums or 3 deeps before dedicating supers for harvest.  You'll have a much stronger productive hive.  Zoot should post--he's been following my methods and seems to be doing very well.

[rdy-b]

I recommend using 2 slatted racks, 1 on the bottom of the hive between the lower brood box and the bottom board and the other between the top brood box and the honey supers in place of a queen excluder.  One point that I think is very important is not to limit the broodchamber.  Give the queen 4 mediums or 3 deeps before dedicating supers for harvest.  You'll have a much stronger productive hive.  Zoot should post--he's been following my methods and seems to be doing very well.

How do you keep all the burr out or do you just leave it? RDY-B

[Brian D. Bray]

I recommend using 2 slatted racks, 1 on the bottom of the hive between the lower brood box and the bottom board and the other between the top brood box and the honey supers in place of a queen excluder.  One point that I think is very important is not to limit the broodchamber.  Give the queen 4 mediums or 3 deeps before dedicating supers for harvest.  You'll have a much stronger productive hive.  Zoot should post--he's been following my methods and seems to be doing very well.

How do you keep all the burr out or do you just leave it? RDY-B

I've found that burr comb is usually a result of not giving the bees enough room to make new comb so they start building it wherever they can.  Timely supering, regardless of the super size, will do more for eliminating burr comb than any other one thing.  I don't have a burr comb problem because I figured that out back in the 60's.  So timely supering and giving additional space in other ways (slatted racks) works for me in reducing burr comb.  Also pulling a storage frame from the outside of a super and replacing it with an undeveloped frame works the same way.  You should notice that most hives will build burr comb like crazy post harvest and as the brood chambers are backfilled.  Working, uncrowded bees build very little burr comb.

[rdy-b]

Is that like the unlimited broodnest theory? 8-) RDY-B

[KONASDAD]

Is that like the unlimited broodnest theory? 8-) RDY-B

Unlimited brood chamber can be done in a number of ways and this would be one way. Check out www.bushfarms.com for more info on diff ways to uuse an unlimited brood area. For me, the theoretical loss of honey is far outweighed by the anti-swarming benefits of UBL. I let the quuen lay where she may.

[mlewis48]

 Thanks for all of the info. It helps alot. Sounds like they are a waste of time and money. Both of which I dont have alot of.  I don't know why they put those things in the packages the they sell beginners. I tried one, at the end of this season and all that I got out of it was alot of burr comb on it. It was like they were sealing it up.  :? So, I can mark that one off of my Santa List.
                                                Thank you,
                                                   Marcus

[Zoot]

Always happy to chime in on the slatted rack issue; ventilation is certainly a benefit but the added space for bees to disperse their population over is probably just as valuable with regards to swarm control. I assume it dovetails nicely into the unlimited broodnest concept. I have never had so much as a speck of burr comb on any of my slatted racks, upper or lower. No swarms or evn swarming behavior and minimal internal moisture - I also use sbb's. Also had exceptional honey production this season (with less than desirable weather all season) which I hope is another related benefit to all of the above. I'm optimistic with the arrangement but will feel a bit more confident with my observations with another season under my belt. My mite population is also minimal though I did treat 2 of my hives with thymol this fall - they were nucs that came with mites.

[Cindi]

Zoot, still trying to get the concept of the slatted bottomboard.  I know you got the design from Brian.  But what I can't get is:  the doweling runs parallel to the frames, but do the dowels sit right underneath the bottom of the frame, inbetween or what.  I just can't seem to get the picture.  Some time when you have a moment to spare, could you please define this as clear as a bell to me.  No hurry, but maybe before next season (you have a couple of months yet, hee, hee  ;) :) :).  I would like to have them on my hives when I put the screened bottomboards back on for the summer.  Beautiful day, beautiful life.  Cindi

[Brian D. Bray]

The slatted rack is normally a seperate item from the bottom board.  Make a shim using 1X2 lumber.  Center the dowling height wise. Space the dowling so that 1 dowling runs directly underneath the frame above it.  A 10 frame hive should have a slatted rack of 10 pieces of dowling (some have suggested using 3/4 or 1 inch PVC pipe, but I hate plastic in a bee hive).  Place the rack between the bottom brood box and the SBB.  Use a second 1 in place of a queen excluder.

[Cindi]

Brian, thanks, getting the picture, I had to read this about 5 times to understand, conceptualizing is not my gig.  Go figure that eh?  That is how hard it is for me to understand these types of things.  So simple for some, so hard for others, like me....hee, haw.  Have a wonderful and great day.  Cindi

PS.  If the dowls run beneath the bottoms of the frames, what happens when the frames are taken out for inspection and then they are put back in but not completely in alignment with the dowl?  Can't get that part now, oh brother, woe is me  :( :-\ :) :roll:  C.

[Brian D. Bray]

Brian, thanks, getting the picture, I had to read this about 5 times to understand, conceptualizing is not my gig.  Go figure that eh?  That is how hard it is for me to understand these types of things.  So simple for some, so hard for others, like me....hee, haw.  Have a wonderful and great day.  Cindi

PS.  If the dowls run beneath the bottoms of the frames, what happens when the frames are taken out for inspection and then they are put back in but not completely in alignment with the dowl?  Can't get that part now, oh brother, woe is me  :( :-\ :) :roll:  C.

exact alignment is not necessary.  What is important is that the dowling run parallel to the frames and so that the spacing of the dowling allows for debrie and mites to fall down and through the SBB.  The bees use the dowling as expantion room when the internal temp of the hive rises instead of bearding on the outside. They also use it as a platform for circulating the air through the hive instead of blocking the entrance and it works as an extra barrier that outside invaders must negotiate thereby helping the bees be more protective of their home and creates a thermal air barrier that essentially  helps in insolating the hive.

[Zoot]

Cindi,

I am embarrassed to admit that posting photos has so far proved difficult. Several guys here have offered to assit so I will have to take them up on the offer one of these days. But, as Brian states, perfect parallel alignment is not important; placing the dowels so that they end up an 1/8" or so to either side of the vertical plane of the frames above seems to not matter as long as there is still room for air to freely circulate, debris to fall unimpeded and bees to move.

As for the thermal barrier: I was initially skeptical but last winter I forgot to replace the inserts in my sbb's. The latter part of the winter was extremely cold here (sub zero F. at night on occasion) and the bees did fine, They appeared to utilize the full space of the lower box which they would have avoided had it been too cold. Note that commercially made slatted racks usually have a solid section at the front that supposedly addresse this alleged claim for cold air permeating the region of the slatted rack. I believe this is unecessary.

[KONASDAD]

They definately form a temp barrier. It acts as an air baffle. Similar to eaves on a house. My bees will lay right to the front edge of a board starting earlier in the spring than the hive that didn't have a SBB. It means you'll be ready for the earliest of flows or splits sooner. I have not tried Brians round version ,but use betterbees version. I also haven't tried using one above the brood chamber. I will probably try it this summer. I can see why it would help "cure" the honey making it go more quickly, leaving extra time for more honey production. I'll give it whirl this year.

[tillie]

The only use I've found for queen excluders is as a drain for cut comb honey before putting it in a box!

I use both slatted racks and SBB on each hive and it makes a huge difference in ventilation for the hives.

Linda T in Atlanta

[annette]

Linda

Do you use slatted racks on the bottom and above the brood super? I am now thinking about them.

Annette