Foundationless Frames

JP · February 25, 2008, 01:54:49 PM

Thanks for the responses!!! Ann, my wife would kill me if my equipment was stacked to the ceiling like that!!! Nice color green on them boxes.

....JP

Tropic · February 25, 2008, 02:05:05 PM

Very beautiful wax... and frame.

Ross · February 26, 2008, 05:50:22 PM

Building frames.....
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/framejig/framejig.htm

Brian D. Bray · February 27, 2008, 11:50:15 PM

Ross:

Built a jig very much like it except I can do 2 8 frame supers at the same time, 15-17 frames depending on how I load it. Who uses glue? I've never needed to.

JP · February 28, 2008, 08:25:39 AM

Quote from: Brian D. Bray on February 27, 2008, 11:50:15 PM
Ross:

Built a jig very much like it except I can do 2 8 frame supers at the same time, 15-17 frames depending on how I load it. Who uses glue? I've never needed to.

I would love to not use glue. With a nail gun I'm hoping I won't. Brian ,you soak your frames before you nail them?

....JP

CBEE · February 28, 2008, 09:26:58 AM

Jigs make things safer ( normally ) than trying to hold things together with your appendages while tacking things together. It seems people consentrate more on the holding together part than where the nail will actually go or if it extend beyond the pieces being put together. :shock: Saw more than one bad thing happen with framing nailers. Brad guns shoot smaller nails but they still hurt :evil:
Just a reminder.. be careful

Ross · February 28, 2008, 02:55:01 PM

The nail is just the clamp until the glue sets. The glue does the serious work of keeping the frame together. When you start pulling frames apart trying to get them out of a well propolized hive you'll appreciate it.

JP · February 28, 2008, 08:55:53 PM

Quote from: Ross on February 28, 2008, 02:55:01 PM
The nail is just the clamp until the glue sets. The glue does the serious work of keeping the frame together. When you start pulling frames apart trying to get them out of a well propolized hive you'll appreciate it.

This is why I use glue and can't quite understand the "no glue" concept. Although I would love it if I didn't have to glue.

....JP

Joseph Clemens · February 29, 2008, 02:37:20 AM

Here's a photo of one of my own foundationless frames, full of mesquite honey on one side, brood on the other. The frames in this photo have their end bars trimmed down to 1-1/4", so I cut a shallow notch in the center of the top bar on both sides of each frame, providing a bee space channel between the top center of each frame:

Brian D. Bray · February 29, 2008, 03:31:43 PM

Quote from: JP on February 28, 2008, 08:25:39 AM
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on February 27, 2008, 11:50:15 PM
Ross:

Built a jig very much like it except I can do 2 8 frame supers at the same time, 15-17 frames depending on how I load it. Who uses glue? I've never needed to.

I would love to not use glue. With a nail gun I'm hoping I won't. Brian ,you soak your frames before you nail them?

....JP

No, water causes the wood to swell making it harder to assemble the frames. It is definitely a no-no if you're using glue. I must amend my comment about not using glue--I do use it to secure the wood or cyroplast starter strips to the frames. I just have never used glue to hold frames together as it is impossible to salvage frame pieces from broken frames if glued without them splitting into pieces. I gather up the usuable pieces of broken frames and use them to rebuild or mend other frames. Just something I was taught by my mentor back when we didn't throw everything away.

You can always identify some one who grew up during the depression (like my parents) because they reuse Christmas wrap and ribbon and save anything that "might" be usuable later. I got that input from my parents as well as my mentor, it's a habit that drives my wife bonkers.

Ross · February 29, 2008, 04:04:42 PM

You won't have nearly as many frames to repair if you start gluing them together. They don't split out and fail like frames held only by a nail. The nail is a wedge in the wood carrying a load. It creates the split. When you glue, the load is distributed over the joint area. Also, you don't get racking of the frame which further stresses the joint and causes splitting. If you get a weak spot, it can be reinforced with a glued on splint in most cases without dissassembling the frame. The only time I've had to do that was a topbar with an area of short grain that broke.

Brian D. Bray · February 29, 2008, 04:31:48 PM

Quote from: Ross on February 29, 2008, 04:04:42 PM
You won't have nearly as many frames to repair if you start gluing them together. They don't split out and fail like frames held only by a nail. The nail is a wedge in the wood carrying a load. It creates the split. When you glue, the load is distributed over the joint area. Also, you don't get racking of the frame which further stresses the joint and causes splitting. If you get a weak spot, it can be reinforced with a glued on splint in most cases without dissassembling the frame. The only time I've had to do that was a topbar with an area of short grain that broke.

Your arguement makes sense. I still have about 80 frames to make so I guess I can spend a few bucks on a bottle of wood glue and see what happens. Never to old to learn new tricks--just stubborn at sticking with what has worked in the past until I'm convinced that a different way of doing something is better. I haven't used glue because of the ends, bottom bars, and occassional top bar that breaks during the building process do to grain or knots. I keep the odds and ends an mend or build more when I have enough to make a box full.

Cindi · March 01, 2008, 11:13:24 AM

That was interesting about the nails making splits in the wood that could eventually cause issues with splitting further. But now I have this queery. If the wood was even beginning to show signs of splitting, wouldn't the bees seal that split up with propolis making it really strong. I kind of get the impression that bees like to have things very smooth feeling in the hive and a split would be a rough surface. Comments. Elaborate on comments. Have a wonderful and beautiful day, great to live this life we live. Cindi

Joseph Clemens · March 01, 2008, 03:47:16 PM

I've always been annoyed by the occasional split that develops when nailing frames together -- though I use glue (polyurethane or Titebond III) and most likely the splits would not be much of an issue. Still I have taken to using a dremmel tool to drill pilot holes for each nail. Since I began doing this I haven't had a single split and the nails always drive true.

I assemble my wooden frames in this same manner whether they are used with foundation, starter strips, or entirely foundationless.

Ross · March 03, 2008, 03:30:30 PM

propolis isn't really that strong, it just seems that way when you are trying to get your frames unstuck. If you glue a lid on a box and then pry it off, wood will be torn from either surface. You don't see that when prying up a lid stuck down with propolis.

johnnybigfish · March 03, 2008, 03:54:12 PM

Just a quick question.....What is "Racking" of a frame?
your friend,
john

reinbeau · March 03, 2008, 04:39:00 PM

Quote from: johnnybigfish on March 03, 2008, 03:54:12 PM
Just a quick question.....What is "Racking" of a frame?
your friend,
john

The frame 'twists', comes out of square.

johnnybigfish · March 03, 2008, 09:12:26 PM

Ahah!
Thanks!
your friend,
john