Anything wrong with inverted hives?

[durkie]

Hi folks...new to the forum and to beekeeping in general. Our 2 hives just made it through our first winter, and I've got a strange problem.

After harvesting late last year, we put the supers back in our hives in hopes that the bees would clean out honey residue and then we could remove the clean supers in a few days. Well...we forgot to do that, and the bees actually managed to fill them back up again. In one hive in our top super, we forgot to put two frames back in, and during the fall the bees drew out comb from the inner cover to fill in the gap.

Our problem now is that the queen is ALWAYS up there in that drawn out comb, and thus also surrounded by a ton of bees. And right now, our brood box is completely empty. Fair amount of pollen, but zero brood. I have the feeling that she's laying brood in the drawn out comb up top, but I cannot really verify, because it's covered in bees and I don't want to bother the queen.

I'm worried about this, because the frames are as drawn out as they can get, and they're surrounded by capped off honey, so I feel like they're cramped for space. What I would like to do is invert the hive: have the supers down below and the brood box up top with two frames removed so that the queen and her workers will be surrounded by empty comb and will also have more space to draw out this natural comb even further. (At least temporarily until things get more spread out the brood box and we can cut the comb off of the inner cover)

So is there a problem with inverting hives like this and having the supers below the brood box? We have almost zero problem with varroa and shb.

[Jerrymac]

Here is a thought.... I have never tried it..... I have heard that bees will abandon comb turned upside down. The queen won't lay in it, but I believe the brood will go ahead and emerge. SO.... take this box complete with the inner cover and sit it upside down on the ground. (pallet, board, what ever) and then sit a brood box with drawn comb on top of that. The queen then moves up to more favorable conditions. After time for brood to mature passes remove the upside down box and harvest the honey.

You will need an upper entrance for this of course.

[doak]

If you can get the comb separated from the top cover, just flip flop the boxes. Put the box that has  brood on bottom, and put the bottom box on top. once they have moved back up, recover your super.

When putting supers on for clean up they can be taken off after 24 to 36 hrs., if not forgotten.

You do carry a day to do list,  Don't you?  I have to and it doesn't hurt one bit, I don't even feel it. ;)
doak

[doak]

Also, any uncapped honey/nectar will run out when inverted.
The cells are slightly slanted.
doak

[Robo]

Also, any uncapped honey/nectar will run out when inverted.
The cells are slightly slanted.
doak

Not true,  surface tension will hold the nectar in the cell.      Beemaster and I argued about this many years ago when I suggest inverting a super to cause the queen to move up.  So I did a little experiment and filled a drawn frame with water (which is thinner than syrup and honey).  No only did it not leak when inverted,  I laid the frame on its side so the cell openings where facing down and it did not leak either.

[Brian D. Bray]

Here is a thought.... I have never tried it..... I have heard that bees will abandon comb turned upside down. The queen won't lay in it, but I believe the brood will go ahead and emerge. SO.... take this box complete with the inner cover and sit it upside down on the ground. (pallet, board, what ever) and then sit a brood box with drawn comb on top of that. The queen then moves up to more favorable conditions. After time for brood to mature passes remove the upside down box and harvest the honey.

You will need an upper entrance for this of course.

This has worked for me in the past in such situations.  Be sure to have at least on frame of open comb in the box you place on top so the queen can begin laying in immedicately.  Once that happens you can slip an excluder in between the boxes and then when all the brood has hatched removed the excluder and re-invert the upsidedown super below the other.

[Scadsobees]

Yes, reverse the boxes if possible.

But if you can't....the bees will move down on their own.  They fill the hive usually from top to bottom, so by the time you have a good flow going, they will start to fill those supers at time and that is how the queen can leave the supers.

Rick

[Cindi]

Durkie, I will not comment on your post.  BUT....I will welcome you to our forum.  You have already seen that you have received some great replies to your post.  This is the best place to spend time, ask questions, learn, tell us your stories about your life with the bees (and other stories too, all is good to read). So welcome, enjoy your time in our safe and friendly, family oriented forum. AND....have a wonderful day, love our great life we live. Cindi

[Michael Bush]

Not only will she lay, but it used to be a common method of swarm control.  Heddon came up with it originally and even produced a frame that would let you do it one frame at a time and a box that would let you do the whole box.

I've been reading all the ABJs from 1886. It's very interesting, although a bit disjointed. A lot of short one or two paragraph "articles" and letters. It's obvious that, at the time, the method of overwintering was the use of the cellar and there was much discussion about keeping the bees cool enough to keep them quiet and clustered.

Another subject, that apparently wasn't so much a controversy about it's usefulness as a controversy about patenting it, was "reversing frames". The Heddon hive had been recently patented and there was much discussion about whether multiple shallow brood boxes had already been done (Heddon's hive was eight frame hives with combs about 4 1/2" deep or so making it similar to two eight frame shallows), whether thumbscrews to anchor the frames so the box could be inverted had been done by others and whether inverting the frames had been done. None seem to contest that Heddon had invented a frame that allowed the comb to be inverted (a frame inside a frame that swiveled).

I found it interesting in light of several discussions that have occurred on Beesource in the past. First they would purposely invert the combs in the brood nest to get the bees to move the honey cap out, prevent swarming and expand the brood nest. Many people on here have said that queens cannot lay in inverted combs, but apparently many people were doing this and there was no mention of any reluctance on the part of the queen to lay in the brood nest, in fact it was done to get her to expand the brood nest. There was also no mention of any problems storing or moving honey with inverted .

But, second, there has been the links to articles about the man with the round combs that rotate, in order to control Varroa. I'm not that interested in doing that much work myself, but if someone wanted to experiment with the idea, inverting brood boxes should have a similar effect on the Varroa. If one inverted the brood boxes every six days then all the Varroa would have to deal with the inversion during the course of their stay in the sealed brood.

Here are a couple of quotes from books of the time:

"REVERSIBLE FRAMES.

"While the reversing of brood combs will produce no ill effects whatever, numerous are the advantages arising from such reversal; some of which aid us materially in accomplishing the desired results which are partially accomplished in the contracting system, above described.

"When using frames even no deeper than the standard Langstroth, you know how the bees (especially Italians) will persist in crowding the queen by storing honey that ought to go into the surplus department, along the upper edge of the brood combs, just under the top bar, and farther down in the upper corners, till by actual measurement we find that nearly one-fourth of each frame, and sometimes more, is occupied with honey.

"Now if we reverse the frame containing a comb so tilled, we place the honey in an unusual position; in a place usually occupied with brood, and when this is done in the breeding season, when the bees are not inclined to decrease their quantity of brood, this honey will be immediately removed to the surplus department, and soon the frame will be one solid sheet of brood, which is a glad sight to the bee-keeper whose experience has taught him the value of a compact brood nest, free from honey."

Success in Beeculture by James Heddon Pg 85


It seemed a pretty common subject:

"REVERSIBLE BROOD FRAMES.

"The engraving represents the reversible brood-frame made by Mr. James Heddon. Many devices have been presented to reverse the frames, but this is as good as any, where reversing is desired."

Bees and honey, or, The management of an apiary for pleasure and profit by Thomas G. Newman pg 44

Hopkins mentions them as well.

Also, the honey will not run out.  They will keep it in by surface tension.  I've watched them do cells slanted the wrong way on the glass of my observation hive many times and they had no problems filling them with honey.

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BurrOnGlass.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BurrOnGlass2.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesobservationhives.htm#pictures

[Jerrymac]

Michael Bush,

So you are saying the queen will lay in the upside down comb? It was you that told me they would abandon it.

[Jerrymac]

I think I found what I thought I remembered, but guess I remembered it a bit different than I thought I remembered it.

What Michael Bush actually said. http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=2001.msg10159#msg10159

>Will a queen lay eggs in upside down comb?
>not trying to say she couldn't be forced into laying in upside down cells if that was the only choice, just that it would not be the preferred choice.

From my experience Robo is right.  She won't want to, but sometimes she will.  Will a queen sting?  I've never been stung by one but have met people who have.  Just because something is unlikely doesn't make it impossible.

I have used the upside down comb method to get them to abandon comb.  Sometimes it works.  Sometimes it doesn't.

[Cindi]

So, now I am thinking that many of us are going to go out and make or try to find reversible brood frames, what next now?  I thought that part about the compact brood nest interesting, reversing the brood frame so the honey is on the bottom of the frame, the place where brood should be, the bees move the honey to the surplus chamber and the queen fills the remainder of the top of the frame with brood.  Cool.......Have a wonderful and awesome day, love this life.  Cindi