Trouble: Early Dead Queen

KES · March 16, 2008, 10:37:23 PM

I need some suggestions and insight. I found a cluster of bees under the bottom board screen, outside the hive. I have a tray down below the screen to watch for mites. Clinging to the screen was a cluster of bees as big as my fist and there was also another cluster laying on the tray that was the same size. Both clusters were all but dead. Some, but very little movement. Upon further inspection, I found the queen in the cluster and she seemed dead. I thought she might have moved but I wasn't sure. Then she laid there and I think she probably died.

We've had 55-60 degree days here in Southern Illinois for the past 4 days. Prior to that it was in the 30-40's. At the urging from someone smarter than me, I picked up the cluster including the queen and placed them back in to the Hive to see if they might warm up. The bees went nuts when I placed the queen inside.

I searched every frame in the hive and there are NO eggs, she hadn't started laying yet. The Russian hive next to them started laying a few days ago.

Here are a couple of other interesting points. When we were searching the hive, we found what looked like a supercedure cell with something emerging. There was clearly something inside. We didn't know what to make of it since there were NO eggs in the hive. Also, we noticed a couple of bees bringing in pollen.

I think I should buy a new queen. It's also been suggested to take a frame of eggs from the Russians and see if the Italians will raise a queen. My problem with that is that I won't see new bees for 50-60 days.

Can someone give me some idea of how to proceed? Why would the queen leave the hive to begin with? Should I wait and see if eggs show up or put in a frame of brood from the Russians or go ahead and order a new queen?

Thanks.

Ken

tngold · March 16, 2008, 11:49:26 PM

was the queen you found marked ? The hive may have raised emergency queens . If there is few drones flying it will be hard to get queens mated . keep an watch on them. I would add a frame or two brood with eggs just to buy some time.

JP · March 17, 2008, 12:10:50 AM

You say there were no eggs but a supercedure cell and the hive went nuts when you put the near dead queen back in the hive. Your temps sound cold but it seems like what I'm hearing is the colony deemed the near dead queen a dud and kicked her out, and balled her to near death. The new queen, could emerge from that cell that you claim is ripe. I may be a little confused, and thrown off by your temps, but think I pieced this together correctly based on your facts.

I would let that new queen emerge, but without drones, she will be a drone layer herself if she doesn't get mated. Do you have drones now where you are? If not, get you a mated queen fast!

...JP

KES · March 17, 2008, 10:10:13 AM

Thanks for the info.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to need a new Queen. Being in Southern Illinois, can anyone recommend someone to me who raises queens that will be mated this early?

Thanks,

Ken

KONASDAD · March 17, 2008, 11:25:51 AM

You're not likely to have enough drones. You might consider a combine w/ weakest hive, or taking frames from strongest two hives and giving hive w/ supercedure cell some brood and nurse bees to insure a queen gets raised assuming there are some drones.

KES · March 17, 2008, 11:41:48 AM

Quote from: KONASDAD on March 17, 2008, 11:25:51 AM
You're not likely to have enough drones. You might consider a combine w/ weakest hive, or taking frames from strongest two hives and giving hive w/ supercedure cell some brood and nurse bees to insure a queen gets raised assuming there are some drones.

That's another issue that I have. I only have two hives, one hive of Italians and one hive of Russians. The Italians are the one's that lost the queen and the Russians, while healthy, are very small in numbers. The Russian queen has just recently started laying and I only have one frame of eggs so far.

Cindi · March 17, 2008, 11:50:03 AM

KES, I am thinking that the best thing for you to do would be to combine these two colonies. If there was a supercecdure going on, I still am not quite getting the picture, but it sounds like there would not be drones around for mating right now. Wait and see for more responses, great day, great life, Cindi

KES · March 17, 2008, 11:59:30 AM

Thanks Cindi. I'm not sure I understand the supercedure either. Basically, there were no eggs in the hive. However, I found a queen cell that had something emerging from it. How could that be with no eggs? Also, if the bee was just now emerging, that means it would have been created a few weeks ago and I'm pretty sure I still had a viable queen at that time.

If I ordered a queen, wouldn't it already come mated?

KONASDAD · March 17, 2008, 12:26:47 PM

Quote from: KES on March 17, 2008, 11:59:30 AM
Thanks Cindi. I'm not sure I understand the supercedure either. Basically, there were no eggs in the hive. However, I found a queen cell that had something emerging from it. How could that be with no eggs? Also, if the bee was just now emerging, that means it would have been created a few weeks ago and I'm pretty sure I still had a viable queen at that time.

If I ordered a queen, wouldn't it already come mated?

They used the last eggs to make a queen cell. Look in other hive and see if any drone cells exist. If they do, they exist in other hives as well and keep fingers crossed. If queen is emerging, that would make it day 19 if I remember correctly. You're about a week from her return from virgin flight and possible laying of eggs.

Yes your queen will be mated if purchased from dealer. Good dealers insure they are laying first, really good dealers wait until 21st day to ship. This insures all of the queeens glands and eggs are developed fully before she is temporarity stopped from laying while shipped to you. This reduces supercedure of this queen as she will be fully developed.

KES · March 17, 2008, 12:39:08 PM

Excellent info konasdad, I'll look for drone cells in the other hive.

KES · March 17, 2008, 12:40:10 PM

By the way, if I end up getting a buying a new queen. Can someone give me an idea of who I could order from this early in the season? Thanks.

Kathyp · March 17, 2008, 01:21:56 PM

from what i have read, and from my own experience, there is about a 50% failure rate with purchased queens introduced into an existing hive. if you have any chance of raising your own, you might save money and frustration. if your queen is not laying in a week or so, your other queen should be going well by then. at least well enough to steal some eggs. your weather actually sounds better than mine, and i know i have a few drones.

are you feeding? that will encourage the queen to get busy.

KES · March 17, 2008, 01:23:21 PM

Yes, I started to feed 1-1 syrup about a week ago.

KONASDAD · March 17, 2008, 04:09:12 PM

I did my first full blown inspection about an hour ago. Lots of drone capped brood, not many actual drones just yet. I was a little surprised to find as many drones as i did. Dont know how your weather compares. Thats good news for my feral which is apparently queenless. I found three queen cells which are from feral queen. One is entirely capped, and two are almost totally capped. i added two boards of brood from one hive and two boards from another hive b/c population was down and I really want these queen cells to succede. i was encouraged by presence of drones. I just might get the daughter of this feral queen, which is cool. All hives were healthy, no signs of mites(used apiguard last year on two hives), and lots of brood, but I didn't find one queen. I hope I didn't transfer her to feral hive or the queen cells are gonners. I did my best. Was glad to get the inaspection in. No swarm cells, no supercedure cells, lots of stores and healthy bees. Phew!

annette · March 17, 2008, 04:12:22 PM

Sounds great Konasdad, good for you.

Annette

Bennettoid · March 17, 2008, 04:20:34 PM

Quote from: KONASDAD on March 17, 2008, 04:09:12 PM
I did my first full blown inspection about an hour ago. Lots of drone capped brood, not many actual drones just yet. I was a little surprised to find as many drones as i did. Dont know how your weather compares. Thats good news for my feral which is apparently queenless. I found three queen cells which are from feral queen. One is entirely capped, and two are almost totally capped. i added two boards of brood from one hive and two boards from another hive b/c population was down and I really want these queen cells to succede. i was encouraged by presence of drones. I just might get the daughter of this feral queen, which is cool. All hives were healthy, no signs of mites(used apiguard last year on two hives), and lots of brood, but I didn't find one queen. I hope I didn't transfer her to feral hive or the queen cells are gonners. I did my best. Was glad to get the inaspection in. No swarm cells, no supercedure cells, lots of stores and healthy bees. Phew!

I'm not that much further south than you, and I was amazed that there were Drones standing on the porch the other day.

Brian D. Bray · March 17, 2008, 09:55:38 PM

I would have to agree with JP, the bees forced the queen to lay an egg or just a few eggs due to her failing. The sole remaining supercedure cell is what survived the weeding out process or the workers. With such limited resources and at this time of year the viability of this queen would be questionalbe as would be the quantity of drones sufficient to mate with her.

As for the Russians, they will overwinter in smaller clusters than Italians and start rearing brood earlier. They will probably not produce a single drone during the first couple of brood cycles. The Italians, on the other hand, will lay smaller patterns and some drones from the get go. The Italians will continue to increase the brood chamber with each successive hatch until they are using 7-8 frames in 2 deep boxes and then flatten out. The Russians will lay as many eggs as they can cover to begin with, and as stated, won't start laying drone eggs until the 2 or 3rd brood cycle. They also will build to a larger hive than the Italians.

The smaller cluster size of the Russians is because they slow and stop laying brood sooner so that during the fall the hive reduces significantly until pretty much inmature bees and the queen is left for overwinter. Whereas the Italians will slow but not stop until frost and more older bees are included in the cluster.

Cindi · March 18, 2008, 12:31:23 AM

KES, just some further clarification here. When you saw something emerging from the queen cell, it probably was the virgin queen. She would be 16 days old. It takes a queen 16 days to emerge from the egg that was laid. She then hangs around the colony for about 5 days (these are approximate and totally weather dependent), she exits on her nuptial flight and comes back mated. She then hangs around the hive for a few more days before she can actually begin to lay eggs. That can be up to about 30 days (and sometimes longer) since the egg was firstly laid. There is a window for the queen of about two weeks where she can mate. If she doesn't mate during this period, the mating cannot occur because of developments within her body. So when you saw her emerge, you could expect eggs within about two weeks or so. These are all dependent if there are drones flying or not. The more drones in the congregation area, the better chances you will have a queen mated with strong genes. Only the approximately 15 strongest of the drones will get a chance to mate with the queen. Others will chime in here, I am sure of that. Beautiful life, beautiful day, more to come. Cindi