Marking the top of frames?

Flygirl · April 19, 2008, 09:11:28 PM

Is there a standardized or typical way to make the top of the frames? I purchased used equipment & all the frames have arrows (<) (>) & dates on them? I'm assuming they were dated when the foundation was installed & the arrows have something to do with the direction the frame is placed in the hive....but I'm just guessing?

Since I didn't know the "system" I'm hoping I haven't screwed things up too much.

What do others use as a marking system or what is the standard? I'm curious & haven't found anything about this in the books I have.

Thanks in advance ~ FG

bassman1977 · April 19, 2008, 09:16:27 PM

I have never heard of any system. I went with my own and used a marker to mark one side of each frame. If they lined up, they were put back into order properly. I eventually stopped doing that and now I just run my hive tool down one side of the top bars so that they all have a fresh scrape on them. If they line up when the frames are put back, I'm all set.

I hope that makes sense.

Michael Bush · April 19, 2008, 09:41:23 PM

Odds are the arrows are for housel positioning.

http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/housel.htm

The dates are probably the date they were put into service.

Kathyp · April 19, 2008, 11:02:09 PM

i have marked a couple when i have swapped frames of brood/eggs. that way i don't have to remember which frame i put in, or when.

tillie · April 19, 2008, 11:06:57 PM

Dee's article that Michael referenced is great - here are two posts from my blog with actual pictures of the comb and what to look for for Housel positioning:

http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/2006/05/housel-positioning-for-honey-super.html
http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/2007/05/mellona-is-bursting-at-seams.html

Linda T in Atlanta

Flygirl · April 19, 2008, 11:18:40 PM

Thanks everyone ~ this is very reassuring! I was worried I was missing a big piece of info :)

FG

tillie · April 20, 2008, 09:03:45 AM

This is probably a question more directed at Michael Bush than anyone else -

I understand how to see and mark frames with starter strips or old comb for Housel positioning. I sometimes put what I would call empty frames into the hive. These are not brand new frames but rather frames with remnants of comb - by that I don't mean a cell deep comb such that I could look into the cells but rather just an edging of wax in the vague shape of the beginnings of wax left over from last year. I don't think there's a way to know how those frames should face, but I'm wondering.

A picture of frame in question is below:

The frame above has an arrow on the top from my first year when I was trying to remember how they were in the hive, but not a HP label.

Linda T in Atlanta

Cindi · April 20, 2008, 09:45:47 AM

Linda, thanks!! Now you have completely messed me right up, hee, hee, :-D ;) :) :)

I read the links on your blog to the Housel positioning of frames. Never even began to imagine in my wildest dreams that the positioning of frames was that important. Now I have to do a whole whack more of studying on this subject. I am not quite getting that Housel positioning of the frames, this is an area where my mind just does not work well, so it is extremely difficult for me to get grasps on these conceptual things, so I must really go deep into my mind to understand. Eeeks!!!! Just when I thought that this year was going to be much more simple with the bees than previous years.

Yes, I have seen that in my colonies where one frame is not even touched, and yet the other one right beside it has been drawn out really far, I am thinking that this may be because the frame was inserted incorrectly. I need further understanding to comment any further in case I give some wrong information here.

Linda, your blog is great, I have said this before and I will say it again. You have worked hard, that shines through, and you are a teacher, you love to impart your knowledge to others that may wish to look and listen. I am one of those. Great job, keep on keepin' on!!! AND, have that beautiful and wonderful day, Cindi (gonna study more about frame positioning, eeeks, just one more thing to do!!!!)

MustbeeNuts · April 20, 2008, 09:56:38 AM

I never knew that there was a method to the installation of the frames. My question is ,, is it really necessary and how many keeps do this method. ??

Michael Bush · April 20, 2008, 10:02:42 AM

When using foundation housel positioning seems to help get the combs drawn without a lot of wild comb. Pierco is now sending an instruction set with their frames telling you to face them all the same direction. But I haven't really seen any pattern in natural comb. I've looked and the only pattern I see is the primary comb is usually (but not always, like greater than 90% of the time) vertical (the "Y" is sideways and the "rows" of cells run up and down like a sheet of foundation turned 90 degrees).

Cindi · April 20, 2008, 10:08:48 AM

Michael, sorry, sounds like Greek to me, :-\ :) :) beautiful day in this most beautiful life, Cindi

Michael Bush · April 20, 2008, 02:32:30 PM

The old way of referring to comb orientation was "horizontal" and "vertical". If you look at a sheet of foundation all of it has horizontal cells. Meaning the rows of cells run horizontally. If you turn it 90 degrees you the rows of cells are vertical. The first comb the swarm builds in a new hive (with no foundation to mislead them) is vertical. After that they are every which was as far as I can tell.

Michael Housel came up with the theory that feral colonies will orient, not just the rows, but the rhomoid bottoms of the cells depending on which side of the primary comb they are. That requires not just noting the rows of cells, but noting the "Y" in the bottom of the cells. With vertical comb, the "Y"s are the same from both sides (sideways "Y"). With horizontal comb they are always opposite on each side. One side will be right side up "Y" and the opposite will be upside down "Y"s.

Dee's article above explains Housel's theory on their placement in a hive.

tillie · April 20, 2008, 02:39:23 PM

So I guess the answer to my question about the frame in the picture above is that it doesn't matter - the bees will build vertical comb, given the freedom of that frame.

Linda T in Atlanta

Michael Bush · April 20, 2008, 04:15:59 PM

>So I guess the answer to my question about the frame in the picture above is that it doesn't matter - the bees will build vertical comb, given the freedom of that frame.

I don't know for sure, but that's my guess. They will sort it out. If you look at the first row of natural comb the top row is odd shaped no matter which way they go. Meaning it's often five sided or elongated etc.