Questions about health of new hive - newby

[Boom Buzz]

My first hive - started in May 2008 - got off to a decent start with good pollen and nectar/honey storage by mid summer.  Egg laying seemed good.  I added a second deep hive in early August hoping to beef up the colony this year and not looking for a honey harvest until next year.

I noticed the other day that there is no external hive activity - coming or going what so ever.  I live in eastern Colorado (front range) and the weather has been fabulous lately.  Warm days (60s) and crisp nights.  We have had a couple of frosts over the past two weeks but not severe.

I opened the hive today and the top deep has 3 frames that are partially combed out.  The other frames are bare.  The frames with comb have uncapped nectar, no pollen, no eggs.  There were a fair number of bees on the comb.  I expected the top frames to be 80% plus in comb and the hive to be thronging with bees.  I'm guessing there were one thousand bees at best.

I did not tear the hive down to get into the lower body.

My questions are
- how would I know if I've lost the queen
    ie., shouldn't there have been eggs or capped brood in the top comb? Or does she stop laying?
         shouldn't there be more bees?
         could most of the bees be in the lower body?

- assuming I've lost the queen, wouldn't the bees have left?  Or could these have been robbers?

- if I've lost the queen, would it be better to requeen now or in the spring?

Any help or advise is appreciated.  This is all new to me!   :)

[Boom Buzz]

By the way, being a first year guy -  I feel like a wimp next to danno... five hives, splitting, swarms, capturing swarms - good going...

[pdmattox]

As cold as you are talking I would bet that the bees are in cluster in the bottom box. If the temps don't rise enough for them to break cluster there will be no activity. Not sure what to tell you about that upper box but in my area I would pull that box off so they would not have to heat all that extra space. Maybe you should do the same and If they don't have any stores you might be able to do a candy board or baggie feeder.
Depending on how much of a nectar flow would determine how much comb they would draw out and remember they only draw as fast as they need it. So no, they may have not drawn all of the frames out.
 If you have a descent cluster of bees in the bottom box I would not worry about queen issues at this time.
Hope this helps and I know there will be more Ideas on this so sit back and see what others have to say. Welcome to the forum.


PS
Don't feel like a wimp, I did not know anything when I started either and Danno is the man.

[Brian D. Bray]

I've had success in forcing a hive to draw comb late in the year, October, by feeding the 1:1 syrup.  5 pints of hot water to 5 lbs sugar.
but since October is gone it is kind of late to do that.  I would recommend removing the top box and feeding with fondant or just plain sugar on top of paper above the frames.  The 3 partially drawn frames will get the bees started in the box in the spring, as it is right now it is just extra space the bees aren't using.

[Boom Buzz]

thankyou gentlemen for your replies and input.  I will take the upper hive body off and consolidate to the lower hive.

Most of  the bees ARE clustered in the lower hive.

Great forum - thanks again...  :)

[Boom Buzz]

Well, I consolidated the hive today and was disappointed in the shape it is in.

The bottom hive body had a number of frames drawn out but no stores and no brood.  There were plenty of bees.

The bees were clustered on the comb and they were stirred up as I checked the frames, but did not become unruly. 

I placed a feeder on top of the frames with 2:1 syrup and left the top hive body on with no frames in it to accommodate the feeder.  I can remove it easily once it gets cold here.  We are having temps in the low to mid 70s, nights in the 40s.  I will switch to sugar once it gets cold.

I assume by the various threads I've read that I will probably lose this colony and have to restart next spring. 
Admittedly I 've taken a hands off approach this year, but did check the hive regularly and thought it was off to a better start.  Ie., in July the comb had lots of brood/eggs, pollen and nectar/honey in circular fashion. 

I did not see a queen today.

Oh, well!

[Brian D. Bray]

If you use those partially drawn frames from the upper super to replace the undrawn ones in the lower box the bees can at least fill those cells with stores, the more stores the better chances of their survival, if the weather is still warm enough in your area (above 45 F) the may even draw some comb yet.
It is still possible to overwinter these bees though they may be in a smaller cluster than you'd like come spring.
Once it gets too cold to feed syrup switch to fondant or granulated sygar on top of the frames. 
BTW, I've had bees drawn new comb on replacement frames as late as mid-October by feeding 1:1 syrup.  They will even draw some comb on 1.5:1 or 5:3 but wont on 2:1.
Start feeding syrup again at the earliest opportunity come February, feed 1:1 and maybe a 1/4 of a pollen patty.  I say a 1/4 due to cluster size and its ability to attract SHB.  You want the bees to use patties as quickly as possible for brood production in the spring but don't want to over feed or leave it on too long or you'll end up with SHB.

[Boom Buzz]

Hi Brian, thanks for the reply and the info.

I took the best frames from the top super and swapped into the lower super, so now all the frames on the lower super have some comb.

If there is no queen, will the bees leave?

I said previously the syrup is 2:1 but I think I made 1.5:1.  I used 6 cups sugar to 4 cups water.  Only made enough to fill a small feeder to see if they will take syrup. 

Is fondant prefered over sugar, or does it matter?  I have sugar on hand, but I would need to order the fondant.

I will be ready with the pollen patty come spring.  Should I wait until the temps get to 45 + for the patty as well?  February and even March can still be really cold here - definitely freezing overnight and often through the day.

Your help is most appreciated.

John
 

[Brian D. Bray]

Hi Brian, thanks for the reply and the info.

I took the best frames from the top super and swapped into the lower super, so now all the frames on the lower super have some comb.

Good

If there is no queen, will the bees leave?

They may dwindle to another hive if one is close by but they wouldn't just out and out abandon a hive without a queen because they would still have the problem of population growth.

I said previously the syrup is 2:1 but I think I made 1.5:1.  I used 6 cups sugar to 4 cups water.  Only made enough to fill a small feeder to see if they will take syrup. 9/quote]

6 cups of sugar to 4 cups of water is 1.5:1.  5 pints water to 5 lbs water is 1:1 and makes 1 gallon of syrup.  With water and sugar and pint and a pound are the same volume and dry weight so it makes it easy to figure out the proper mixture.  "A pint is a pound the world around" was on old teaching adage used prior to WWII.

Is fondant prefered over sugar, or does it matter?  I have sugar on hand, but I would need to order the fondant.

Fondant isn't hard to make, one way is take a mixture of 2:1 syrup and mix in Corn Syrup and powdered sugar (more of the later) until you have a thick paste the consistancy of putty.  How much of each is dependant on what it takes to get the desire consistancy.  Spread it out and cut it into needed sizes.

I will be ready with the pollen patty come spring.  Should I wait until the temps get to 45 + for the patty as well?  February and even March can still be really cold here - definitely freezing overnight and often through the day.

Your help is most appreciated.

John

For day time temps yes, the bees will begin breaking cluster at 40F for cleansing flights on clear warm days, that's when you want to go back to feeding syrup and pollen in the spring.  Try not to feed more than you think they'll take in 48 hrs, leaving syrup and pollen in the hive longer than that means it needs to be warmed up and re-fed to the hive.
 






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