more than one brood box?

[tlynn]

I have run into some discussions that reference hives with more than one brood box.  From the few beeyards I have visited I haven't seen any beekeepers in my area doing it.  Why have 2 brood boxes?  Is this something only done in colder climates to build up for winter?  Or is there a time when I should recognize it's needed?  I did that once earlier in the year to split a hive and it worked well.

[fermentedhiker]

I believe you are correct in thinking it has something to do with winter stores.  Typically in this area where winter lasts(at least as far as nectar flows are concerned) from November to March possibly even through April some years beeks try to have 2 (10) frame deeps or there equivalent mass in whatever equipment you are using at the beginning of winter.  Hopefully ensuring that they have enough to get them through.

I don't know much about beekeeping in the south but I would think that limiting your hives to one brood box(i assume using a queen excluder) would limit the size of your colony and encourage them to swarm more often, but I'm NO kind of expert for sure.

[BjornBee]

Overwintering in one box could be for many reasons, to include the fact that sugar is less costly than honey. I know some who overwinter in singles due to the fact they take off all honey and would rather just feed them if needed. In the south, this seems more easily accomplished.

I would think many would overwinter in warm climates with far less boxes than what they do in the north if you could. But I think keeping the brood chamber compressed into one box, and only having supers above, is not advantageous. I know many of my queens will fill at least two deep almost wall to wall in peak season. But I guess flows and local conditions of what one can, and can not do, is also important.

With SHB in the south, I think more are compressing their bees down to help protect the comb, and keep hives healthy. (Thus storing extra boxes, etc.) And maybe having an extra box makes a difference. If it helps keep SHB in check, and you can still feed them if needed, perhaps this is the way to go. 

[Brian D. Bray]

To elaborate on what BjornBee has said:

Overwintering in one box could be for many reasons, to include the fact that sugar is less costly than honey. I know some who overwinter in singles due to the fact they take off all honey and would rather just feed them if needed. In the south, this seems more easily accomplished.

1 box is common is warmer climates because the bees have a shorter winter and longer foraging period.  Also, I've found that regardless of the time of year, if the bees can get out of the hive there is pollen sources available.  Pollen and nectar sources are not always co-existant.  It is also easier to feed in warmer climate.

I would think many would overwinter in warm climates with far less boxes than what they do in the north if you could. But I think keeping the brood chamber compressed into one box, and only having supers above, is not advantageous. I know many of my queens will fill at least two deep almost wall to wall in peak season. But I guess flows and local conditions of what one can, and can not do, is also important.

Northern climates require more pollen and honey stores than Southern states.  A Hive in Texas or Florida may only need 30 lbs of stores to get through the "rough spots" of winter whereas in the North they need approximately 3 times as much due to longer periods of colder temperatures.  Another reason for the 2nd box is to accelerate spring buildup.  Giving the queen 2 brood chambers instead of one, means there is more bees, sooner, to forage on a shorter harvest season so the 2 tier hives can match or exceed the harvest of a single tier hive.

quote]With SHB in the south, I think more are compressing their bees down to help protect the comb, and keep hives healthy. (Thus storing extra boxes, etc.) And maybe having an extra box makes a difference. If it helps keep SHB in check, and you can still feed them if needed, perhaps this is the way to go.  [/quote]

That is one reason, surely, but both the SHB and Wax moth prey on weak hives.  A single deep can be weaker coming out of winter than a 2 tier hive so it kind of evens out.  For bees strength is population.  It's been said that Southern bees swarm more often than Northern Bees and the difference in brood chamber size may be part of that reason.  When the brood chamber becomes maximized it is time to swarm, 2 boxes takes longer to maximize.  A hive can be feed pretty much anytime, there are a variety of methods that allow this, so the size of the hive when it comes to feeding is pretty much a non-factor.

[1of6]

Tracy,
Very good thread.  I've been mulling this very thing back and forth a lot for my area as well, and I've come to only mixed conclusions at the best as well.

Most folks in this area run double deeps.  A few 'old-timers' still try to run singles, but not very often, and I've seen virtually no-one do well with it in this area for quite a long time.  I run doubles and triples.  Let's talk about the triples - this has a parallel to what you, Bjorn, and Brian area talking about.

In my area, two doubles 'should' be enough feed to get a colony through the winter.  Some active boomers could burn through more than this, but in almost all cases, 2 is enough.  I've tried to consider the broodnest size issue, and have experimented with the use of 3 deeps.  In 2007 I installed a new package (fed hard) and built up into 3 deeps.  Results were pretty good, and I did pull a little honey off late that first year.

Early 2007 package:


In 2008 I tried running several colonies in triple deeps.  These provided only minor success, but I believe this was due to our 'odd year' in terms of weather - lots of rain, bees not able to leave the boxes as much, and weird flows.  It seemed that much of what was brought in by these 'boomer' colonies in triple deeps was spent as overhead in keeping the large broodnest fed.  This year it honestly seemed like my double-deeps were as productive or more productive, with the exception of the fact that these 'triple-deeps' were absolutely great for peeling nucs off of.

A few 2008 3-deeps:


I'd love to be able to say that I had a little more conclusive results on my end as well, but I'm kind of at the 'Go Figure' point.  I'll try it on a few boxes this year as well, and see what I get.  It does seem to have advantages over doubles, but at times certain aspects can be a drawback.  I suspect you're running into the same issues as you compare singles to doubles.  Who knows, you may find that two mediums provide a happy middle-ground, but you'll have to test for yourself and decide which you like better.  There are always reasons as to why people in a certain area do things a certain way, but don't be too locked into your current methods, and don't be afraid to experiment with other approaches.  Best of luck and let us know what you learn that's specific to your area.

[Brian D. Bray]

A critical point about three deeps was made in passing:

It seemed that much of what was brought in by these 'boomer' colonies in triple deeps was spent as overhead in keeping the large broodnest fed.

Three deeps requires a very prolific queen and a lot of the forage goes to the brood nest.  So much so that it is more than likely that a 2 deep will produce more harvestable honey than a 3 deep.  Those 3 deeps are extremely impressive on a warm afternoon during a heavy flow with a cloud of bees in front of it that is almost too thick to see through.

[poka-bee]

Three deeps requires a very prolific queen and a lot of the forage goes to the brood nest.  So much so that it is more than likely that a 2 deep will produce more harvestable honey than a 3 deep.  Those 3 deeps are extremely impressive on a warm afternoon during a heavy flow with a cloud of bees in front of it that is almost too thick to see through.
[/quote]
Oohh Brian, What a sight that would be, specially for us in the northern climes this time of year, kinda like "beekeeper porn"!!! :evil: :evil:  J

[manfre]

Since having more brood boxes means a lot more bee traffic, would it make sense for those who live in an urban setting to only use 1 brood box to reduce the bee traffic?

[tlynn]

Great points.  Thanks all for the thoughtful responses! 

So from what I gather having 2 brood boxes is advantageous for:

1) making it through the winter better
2) coming into spring with stronger hives
3) having more brood to do splits/nucs

And is disadvantageous

1) If SHB is a problem (it is here)
2) if I steal all the honey and feed, which I think means I will have to feed them more

Interesting talk about 3 deeps.  So you could really get diminishing returns if you let the hive grow too big?  Hmm...though I really like when my bees do mass orientation flights and having a cloud of bees around like that would be way cool!

Since this is my first "winter" with bees here in FLA I had the impression from other local beeks that once our last flows were done in November they would be hunkered down without any food until spring.  That's why I thought maybe I should be considering 2 deeps for all those reasons.  I kept back about one and a half supers per hive, and so far they still are bringing in steady pollen and nectar and building a little comb.  Think I'll have some honey leftover...probably it's not bad advice to keep a super back...I believe what's happening is most of the folks at our meetings are more rural than I am.  I am in the middle of sprawling suburbs with ornamentals all over the place.  Get away from the population areas and you have the major flows like palmetto, citrus, etc and not much else between.  Of course maybe I could be experiencing an abnormal flow.  Just all hard to know with my experience.

With all that said, and given most every day through the winter the temps get high enough for foraging, it doesn't appear that doubling up would be a big advantage for overwintering.  Yet I like the idea of having more brood frames to use.  I just got 2 nucs to prepare for swarms this spring and I could pull some brood to help along caught swarms.

I'd like to experiment with one hive, which right now is bursting with bees.  I would be starting with a brand new deep with new duraglit foundation.  Not sure if they could crank out comb right now and SHB is a concern.  I had a big infestation in the summer and became careful about increasing the hive real estate.  Should I wait until they are in a big spring flow (citrus) to start them on a second deep?  And when I do add one, would I put all new foundation together or mix it up?

1of6 said "don't be afraid to experiment" and that's a challenge for a new beekeeper who's concerned he might screw up something.  But I guess that's the way I'm going to learn.

Thanks everybody!

Tracy