Need help ASAP with supercedure cells and swarm cells OH MY!!

annette · May 06, 2009, 04:26:51 PM

I just got back home from visiting my hives. The little swarm I caught 2 weeks ago is producing supercedure cells on the one frame of brood I placed in the hive when I first installed them. There are about 8 supercedure cells all along the tops of the frames.
So I guess they will make a queen. I gave them another frame of brood from my other good hive to boost the population.
No problem with this hive I hope.

Now for the problem. I have another hive, that hive I inherited from that elderly beekeeper, and it is full of problems, Supercedure cells and Swarm cells all over the place and it is full of drone brood. There is some worker brood also, but very little. It is exploding with bees. I am thinking of taking a couple frames of supercedure cells from that hive and placing it into the little swarm nuc. I am also thinking of switching the locations of this hive with my little swarm. I know this hive is going to swarm any day now. Most of the queen cells were already capped. I am thinking of going back up there now and changing locations so I can capture the returning foragers today into my little swarm.

I know I should split this hive also, but for now, today, should I change locations with my little swarm to help increase the population of the little swarm?

What are the chances this overpopulated drone laying hive will make good queen cells??? Is it worth the effort to even split this hive???

Help as soon as you can please
Annette

JP · May 06, 2009, 04:42:57 PM

If the brood frame you gave the swarm had eggs or larvae young enough for the bees to make a queen from and enough bees to get the job done you may be OK, but with very few bees and larvae too mature they may not succeed.

I'm thinking you don't have enough bees for the task so I would give them a few capped queen cells from the hive that's about to swarm.

I don't know the history of the hive you got from the elderly man, they may have good genetics maybe not, but see what you can do with them anyway.

If you can make a split with the laying queen you can save that group of bees most likely but you have to act quickly seeing they are ready. The extra drone cell is also a sign they are gearing to swarm.

You may need to do at least a few more splits with that hive.

Put a swarm trap out if you can't get to them.

...JP

annette · May 06, 2009, 04:46:34 PM

Ok I will go up and give them a few queen cells. Do you think it is wise to exchange locations now between the little swarm and the drone laying hive that is about to swarm????

JP · May 06, 2009, 04:48:14 PM

I'm going to call you.

...JP

annette · May 06, 2009, 05:10:12 PM

Quote from: JP on May 06, 2009, 04:48:14 PM
I'm going to call you.

...JP

Fabulous talking with you.

Take care
Annette

Robo · May 06, 2009, 05:11:07 PM

Wow, where to start.

Sounds like your swarm is making emergency cells and not supersedure cells. Since they are small in numbers and recently hived, I wouldn't hold out high hopes for a quality queen. If you haven't read this, it explains my thoughts on emergency cells.
http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/can-you-afford-emergency-queens/

I would normally agree with JP and say take a swarm cell from the other hive, I have reservation since that mother queen is questionable at best, but this is probably still the best option at this point. Not a great option, but an option.

The fact that the other hive does have some brood, means the queen isn't total dry of sperm to fertilize eggs, but makes you wonder the quality. Bees will attempt to make queens out of unfertilized drone eggs if that is all they have. Hopefully they got some of the few fertile eggs she has been able to produce.

Ultimately, I would definitely re-queening these hives with quality queens (or swarm cells from a hive with a good queen) as soon as you can, regardless of the outcome of these queen cells. Even poor quality young queens can lay good for a short time, you don't want to be having these issues again in November.

rob...

Michael Bush · May 06, 2009, 07:54:29 PM

The question I think we need to answer is what percent of the bees are drones and what percent of the brood is drones. If it's well over 20% (like 75%) then you have a failing queen and it's doubtful they will swarm. If it's more like 20% then I'd say they are about to swarm. If it's really 50% or more drones, then I'd say the queen is failing and those are supersedure cells and they may well have drone larvae in them. If you have multiple eggs, I'd say you have laying workers.

annette · May 06, 2009, 11:04:44 PM

It is definitely about 75% drone brood.

I want to find this queen if possible and replace with a good mated queen (probably have to purchase one). Same goes for the little swarm (I may try to go down tomorrow and purchase a mated queen for this little hive as well) Firstly I need to figure out as well if this is a laying worker hive. I don't think so because there is still worker brood as well in the hive.

I am waiting to hear from Ray Marlar who said he could come up tomorrow to help me go through these hives. I would like a more experienced beek to check them out as well before I do more damage than good.
Thanks for all the advice.

Annette

Jack · May 06, 2009, 11:17:05 PM

A close eye and lots of patience is in order. I was ready to help my new package today with a fresh frame from another hive and to my surprise I found a superceedure cell opened, so I now have solved the queen problem or the girls have. Guess they didn't like the queen that came with the package. Always so much to learn.