I think I am queenless!

jeremy_c · May 30, 2009, 01:50:31 PM

Last Saturday in hive #4 I could not find my queen (first time since the hive was installed) however, I did not worry that much because I saw egg, larva and capped brood. This weeks inspection did not find the queen either, however I did find what I think are 4 queen cells. I did not find larva or eggs this time around. What is concerning me is that 2 of the queen cells (what I think are) are at the bottom (not hanging off the bottom, but are out of the bottom part of the comb). The other two cells are toward the top. I understand that when they are hanging from the bottom they are swarm cells? ... However, I can't imagine this hive is doing anything with swarming. It's from a 2# package installed on Apr 20th and they only have 5 frames built out.

I captured some video and a picture. I am wondering if anyone can shed any light on this?

The only way I know how to host video is on my blog, sorry. http://jeremy.lifewithchrist.org/permalink/48357.html. Thanks for any input.

Here is the picture:

Jeremy

Bill W. · May 30, 2009, 02:16:35 PM

If you had no no eggs this inspection, I'd guess what you have are neither swarm nor supercedure cells, but rather emergency cells. I don't think the bees consult an architect when they build emergency cells; they get built wherever there happens to be a suitable larva.

jeremy_c · May 30, 2009, 03:46:38 PM

So, no eggs this time but eggs last time. That means she was there at least w/in 3 days of my last weeks visit, that means she was there w/in the last 10 days, correct? Since there was no larva in this inspection, that means she has been missing for at least 9 days? So, suppose they knew about it and started feeding a new queen 9 days ago, that leaves 7 days left before a new queen emerges?

Now, I have a ton of questions :-)

1. I've been with out a queen for 9 days already and will be for another 7 days. How long after that before she is mated and starts laying again?
2. It seems to me that this hive could been eggless for 20 days or so, during this time (honey flow is on, the hive is building (only 5 frames developed thus far)) how deterimental is this?
3. There are four emergency cells, what are the chances of none of them producing queens? Does an emergency cell always produce a queen?
4. What are the chances of the new queen mating sucessfully? I have 5 other hives but I assume she will fly away to mate. Is there a high chance that she may not return due to some danger?
5. Finally, should I just go buy a queen?

Jeremy

Michael Bush · May 30, 2009, 06:28:13 PM

Personally I'd let them raise their own queen. You get local genetics and you get bees that are doing well for you in your climate. I think the sooner we all quit bringing in genetics from other places the better off we will be.

Bill W. · May 30, 2009, 09:45:07 PM

Quote from: jeremy_c on May 30, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
1. I've been with out a queen for 9 days already and will be for another 7 days. How long after that before she is mated and starts laying again?

Probably less than a week. If it takes more than a week, either she is not coming back or came back a virgin. If you are in an area with good bee density, she will probably be back very quickly.

Quote from: jeremy_c on May 30, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
2. It seems to me that this hive could been eggless for 20 days or so, during this time (honey flow is on, the hive is building (only 5 frames developed thus far)) how deterimental is this?

Well, figure a bee lives six weeks in the summer - 20 days is about half that. So, if the workers have an even age distribution, you would expect to lose a bit less than half by the time you have a queen laying again.

Quote from: jeremy_c on May 30, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
3. There are four emergency cells, what are the chances of none of them producing queens? Does an emergency cell always produce a queen?

I don't know that anyone can point to a statistic on success by cell. I'd say odds are pretty good that you will get a queen. Whether or not you get a quality queen is a different matter. If they waited too long to start rearing them, you could have a poor queen.

Quote from: jeremy_c on May 30, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
4. What are the chances of the new queen mating sucessfully? I have 5 other hives but I assume she will fly away to mate. Is there a
high chance that she may not return due to some danger?

A mating flight is risky - lots of things could happen. Hungry birds don't care if lunch is a worker or a queen. However, my queens usually come back, so I wouldn't worry too much about it - just keep checking for eggs once you think you have a queen.

Quote from: jeremy_c on May 30, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
5. Finally, should I just go buy a queen?

If you don't want to wait and worry that you will end up with a missing or poor quality queen, that would be the way to go. I prefer to keep my local genetics and let the bees manage their queen rearing for the most part. If you just want to get the hive back on track, buying a queen will save you time and population.

iddee · May 30, 2009, 09:49:25 PM

Close the hive, go have a beer. The new daddy is full of the jitters.

A queen cell caps on day 10. Emerges on day 16. If the cells were capped, you will have a queen within 5 days. Mating and egg laying will start from 3 to 20 days after emerging. Relax, everything is going along fine.

annette · May 30, 2009, 11:25:37 PM

From the time you see a queen cell to the time she is laying eggs could be as long as 28 days. (Per MB)

iddee · May 31, 2009, 12:01:09 AM

Yes, or could be as little as 4.

charles · May 31, 2009, 12:30:08 AM

Quote from: annette on May 30, 2009, 11:25:37 PM
From the time you see a queen cell to the time she is laying eggs could be as long as 28 days. (Per MB)

That's exactly how long it took my last one. And I was convinced I was queenless. Turns out, everything was just fine.

Cheryl · May 31, 2009, 01:07:24 AM

Quote from: jeremy_c on May 30, 2009, 01:50:31 PMWhat is concerning me is that 2 of the queen cells (what I think are) are at the bottom (not hanging off the bottom, but are out of the bottom part of the comb). The other two cells are toward the top. I understand that when they are hanging from the bottom they are swarm cells?

The ones that are on the bottom of the comb probably started out simply as worker eggs in that location. Merely a coincidence. I think it's most likely that all these cells are emergency/supercedure cells.

adgjoan · May 31, 2009, 11:54:15 AM

If you end up with a poor quality emergency queen the bees will supersede her and you will be back to square one. Go have a beer this may take a while.

Joan

Michael Bush · May 31, 2009, 11:57:54 AM

If you have a capped queen cell, you can assume it's eight days along a path that typically takes 28 days. So I'd figure 20 days, but if it's brown and papery and about to emerge it could be eight days further along making it 12 days. And on the inside, sometimes a queen will lay as short as four days after emergence, but this is rare. So, yes, it could be as short as four days IF it was about to emerge and IF it's the shortest possible time from emergence to laying. But If I saw a capped cell in the condition above I would assume that it was just capped and figure three weeks.

Robo · May 31, 2009, 01:17:01 PM

Regardless if it is an emergency queen or supersedure queen, unless your a gambling man and aren't too worried about loosing the hive in the long run, I would re-queen. Since the hive was started from a package a little over a month ago, it can't be too strong. In fact, you only started getting new bees a week or so ago. Furthermore, since it was only a 2lb. package, the numbers where low to start with. Your odds are marginal at best with only five frames built out.

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/can-you-afford-emergency-queens/

Kathyp · May 31, 2009, 01:40:54 PM

QuoteI would re-queen

and make sure it's marked!! :evil: sorry, had to say it.

i go with the majority. i prefer they make their own if it's at all possible. no rejection. even a small hive can raise a great queen if they have proper nutrition and plenty of drones around to get her well mated. at this time of the year nutrition should not be a problem. of course, there is the risk that you will wait for this queen and a passing swallow will scoop her up for dinner as she goes on her 1st mating flight.....

Robo · May 31, 2009, 04:59:59 PM

Quote from: kathyp on May 31, 2009, 01:40:54 PM
and make sure it's marked!! :evil: sorry, had to say it.

:lau:

Just think how boring this forum would be if we didn't have queen failures to talk about or if everyone could find their queens. Or how about those winter/spring heart wrenching stories of dead hives with plenty of honey left..... :tumbleweed:

wadehump · May 31, 2009, 09:54:31 PM

I agree with mb let them raise there own, all beekeepers should stop rushing out to buy a queen to replace home grown bees.I here a lot of talk on this forum about queens not being as good when they are emergency or supercedures.how due you think all of the queen sellers are getting there mass produced queens to sell they fool the bees to make a new queen.jeremy c i see you are from summit co. ohio , i am in southern ohio,your winters can bee quite cold and windy. let them raise there own and mate with the local dronesmay turn out to be a hive to raise more queens from next summer.

Robo · May 31, 2009, 10:39:48 PM

Quote from: wadehump on May 31, 2009, 09:54:31 PM
all beekeepers should stop rushing out to buy a queen to replace home grown bees.

I totally agree local acclimatized bees perform much better.

Quote
I here a lot of talk on this forum about queens not being as good when they are emergency or supercedures.how due you think all of the queen sellers are getting there mass produced queens to sell they fool the bees to make a new queen.

Wow, a little vague in your analogy I think. You seem to gloss over a few facts. Not that I'm a proponent of commercial queens, but most reputable breeders use eggs from a quality queen and not a failing or failed queen as with supersedure. They also control the age of the larve, and more importantly, provide cell builders with an abundance of young bees and resources to better mimic the conditions for making swarm cells. You truly believe a failing hive can produce as good a quality queen as a swarming hive? So how many young bees do you think Jeremy has from a 2lb. package a little over a month old?

Question for you wadehump

Every year I always see a boat load of folks losing hives due to "the weather" yet most of the time they don't loose all their hives. I think it is safe to assume that all their hives experienced the same weather so what factor(s) do you believe determines which survive and which die?

wadehump · May 31, 2009, 11:12:16 PM

yes i probaly did gloss and leave out some facts i hate to type, but lets assume that the packages that he ordered were from a quality breeder wouldnt the genetics be there and with the other hives he has he can help them along until they get on there feet so to speak. as to your question. i do not have a good answer but i can say that out of six hives that i had over winter 4 did not make it and they all had honey left but was on the far side of the hive. winter was odd for us this winter was warm until late dec then got very cold then warmed up in late jan and then we had a 3 day ice storm

jeremy_c · June 01, 2009, 12:24:29 AM

If I decide to purchase a queen, do I simply destroy the existing queen cells? I would assume that I introduce a new queen the same way I installed the queen with the package, i.e. put her between two frames, pop the cork, replace with a marshmellow (if no candy installed) and let the rest take place by itself?

I am not a gambling man and would like to do everything I can to ensure this hives survival. I have 6 and would love to have 6 next spring, am I crazy for thinking I may?

Jeremy

jeremy_c · June 01, 2009, 03:18:16 PM

I purchased and installed a new queen today. A Carniolan queen that is marked, mated and has a prooven laying pattern. I found a total of 5 emergency cells. I choose to do this as this is my first year bee keeping, it was a new package install as of Apr 20th from a 2# box-o-bees. It only has 4 1/2-5 frames drawn out and I am not a gambling man. If it were further along in it's development, had honey storage already, was not in the honey flow and was well established, I would have let nature alone.

I suppose that I will always wonder what would have happened if I would have went the other route, or if I went the other route what would have happened if I installed a queen on my own. Maybe when I have more hives and am further along in my bee keeping knowledge I can experiment when these things come up, for now I think I took the safe (maybe not) route.

Jeremy