How do You Know if You have a Thriving Hive?

luvin honey · June 15, 2009, 10:51:36 AM

I'm very concerned about one of my Italians. I got two 3# packages the beginning of May, both in topbar hives. They both pounded out about 15 brood combs in a matter of weeks. Every time I have been in either, there is evidence of great brood comb, a few portions of drone comb, nice egg laying. I have not actually seen the queen in the hive I am concerned about. Here is what has me worried (admittedly a VERY new beek):

1. Very little activity in and out of the hive. Maybe about 1-3 bees in or out every 10 seconds on a nice, calm, warm, sunny day. About 25% of the other hive.

2. Apparently little guarding. I had opened up their entrance all the way when they had been thriving, but now, I closed it down again. I can stick my face right next to it and not really see any guard bees. They don't usually even come out to check me out.

3. Uncovered comb. Their comb building has halted (via inspection windows) since my last inspection. Both hives had comb that either fell or had to be cut out. Both had 2 bars added between nice comb. This hive does not even cover the comb it had already drawn out.

4. One day, I actually (through the window) saw bees just standing still on the observation window.

5. Legs all over the bottom of the hive (a dozen or more). Could this be clean up from any that got crushed in the last inspection?

What are signs of a thriving hive? And, could it be that I have one good hive and one super, duper good hive so that the first looks bad in comparison?

Thanks in advance for your help!

luvin honey

Natalie · June 15, 2009, 02:07:01 PM

I don't know that much either but I wonder about the legs all over the hive.
That sounds like they could have been battling it out with another colony.
I have heard that wasps come in and attack and bite the heads off of the bees and bring them back to their young for food.
Do you know if you still have a queen?

luvin honey · June 15, 2009, 06:17:42 PM

I don't know about the queen. I last inspected 6 days ago and was hoping to hold off for 2 weeks. With this concern, I think I might go back in at 1 week if the weather is nice.

One other thing--this hive is shaded from about 1 pm on, the other getting sunlight a few hours longer. Is this enough to make that much of a difference in their buildup and strength?

Davepeg · June 15, 2009, 07:22:56 PM

I do think our hive that is in full sun does much better than the hives we placed under a tree. They still get sun each day, but not nearly as much as the hive out in the open.
I'm not good at spotting the queen. We have 7 hives and I have only seen one queen in 4 years! (and she was marked). I would be concerned if you don't see any brood.

luvin honey · June 16, 2009, 12:04:56 AM

It's a sickly ash that is shading the weaker hive, so I think it is going to go.

I dragged my husband out to the hive. Of course, it was booming tonight!! Making a liar out of me :) They still have a much smaller colony, but there was a lot of activity at the entrance and so I opened it back up a bit.

Could anybody tell me when a hive is "healthy enough?" What general signs do you look for? How much brood comb is enough?

Thanks!

luvin honey · June 17, 2009, 01:29:40 AM

Not to beat a dead horse, but I wonder if anybody could help me and all the other new beeks out. I changed the title of this thread to reflect my new question.

What are signs of a thriving hive? The more specific you can be, the better. Thanks!

jeremy_c · June 17, 2009, 02:34:04 AM

They pounded out 15 brood combs? Wow. That was quick. My top bar hives installed in early May now have 6 combs built out. They were 2# packages, but still. I am a first year beek also, so I cannot answer your question, sorry. Just amazed at the 15 brood combs.

Jeremy

luvin honey · June 17, 2009, 07:48:23 AM

Yeah--I was quite impressed, too! The good hive has perfectly shaped brood comb, all the way to the edges and bottom (except for bee space). We have had perfect weather, though. Even though cool for here this time of year, it has still usually been warm, sunny, calm and nectary/polleny enough :D for the bees.

Well, the weaker hive did start getting really active again. They also definitely have a curved-comb messed up brood chamber, but I just hate to go in and cut it down since I know it will really set them back again. They are both also closed in today for pesticide application right next to their hive (renters this year, going back to organic next year!!).

MustbeeNuts · June 17, 2009, 07:26:46 PM

Well I'm a second year beak, but I was told that if you have a bee coming out every second, that is a sign of a good running hive, and if you get more out . then its working fine, by now I have nearly 80 bees comin out of the hive per min, that varies with the hives strength,(langstrom) I don't count the inbounds.
I would also say that a hive that has good hatches is a sign as well, thats when you have an orientation flight in the afternoon on a nice day, lots of bees flying in front of the hive going back and forth, stairing at the front. If I have that many bees coming out I check the hive body to see if it needs another and it usually does. A strong hive can pull and fill a super in approx a week, some have told me much faster, but that would be a fully functional hive already established and full.

joker1656 · June 17, 2009, 09:24:58 PM

This is a helpful, at least interesting, thread. Thanks for starting it.

Does anyone know if the info about number of flights/sec is accurate? That is pretty interesting, and would be a nice way to gauge things w/o disturbing the hive.

-Joker

Pond Creek Farm · June 17, 2009, 11:00:16 PM

I do not count the inbound or outbound bees (although I think that sounds quite interesting). My strong hives have the following characteristics: (1) I see a lot of activity outside the hive whenever I go to the hives. That is, bees are coming and going at a fast pace. They do not dally either when they exit or enter. Standing even 20 feet away I can hear them zoom past me. Also, I often see large numbers of bees simply flying around the hive. The first time I saw it, I thought it was a swarm (I have never seen one, so I could only imagine). I have learned that this is an example of orientation flights. ; (2) When I open the hive, bees are everywhere. They are all quite busy doing various things. When I pull a frame, the bees are busy and remain so despite me pulling the frame. A frame of brood is covered with bees to the point that I can hardly see what is beneath them; (3) I see brood in various stages with honey and pollen scattered across the tops of the frames.

Contrast that with my weaker hives that are failing or struggling (and I have several). In these hives, little activity occurs outside the hive. I see only the occasional bee coming or going, and they are usually in singles. When I open the hive, I find too much nectar, some pollen and far too little brood (if any). I have a couple of hives that started with failing queens and progressed to full blown queenless hives. These had liquid nectar, some scattered pollen and the only brood I found was drone brood in a spotty pattern. It is unmistakable: capped brood sticking off the frame surrounded by uncalled nectar or empty cells. There are few bees on the frames, and no one seems to be doing much. I know this sounds silly, but it is almost like the hives have completely different attitudes. One industrious, the other dejected.

beedad · June 17, 2009, 11:02:31 PM

my best hive right now is a tbh started this year. theyre on theyre 13 comb and are really busy. they havent been doing much during the day but they get more active in late afternoon. time of day makes a big difference with whats flowing for nectar. if you have pleany of brood id say theyre doing fine. maybe theyre busy when your not around.

luvin honey · June 17, 2009, 11:25:42 PM

Mustbeenuts--Thanks for that very specific and helpful information! It just didn't feel right at all when I could count to 5 before a bee would go in or out. Especially when the hive nextdoor had about 10 coming and going in that time.

Pondcreekfarm--I know what you mean about hive "personalities." I try not to play favorites :), but I was starting to get quite worried about this hive. It had messed up comb, slow activity and slower growth. For a while there, it was also starting to get hotter and hotter.

Beedad--You could definitely be right on time of day and differing activity levels. I wonder if it's just like kids. I don't expect my 2 kids to behave identically, even though they have the same parents :) They each have their strengths and weaknesses.

So, here's what I found on inspection today:

15 brood combs in the "bad" hive, 16 in the "good" one---huh? That was a shocker!! AND, the "bad" hive has a half-built sheet of to-be honey!! Guess I got worried a little too soon. And, their broodnest was not quite the mess it had first seemed to be. Probably about 4 drones per side of comb and some drone brood but a great capped brood pattern, lots of eggs and larvae.

They DID have about 3 weeks with very minimal activity. I don't know what was going on, but now they are very active again and doing great.

I don't want to end this thread, though, because the more I can learn about what makes a strong or weak hive, the better!

Pond Creek Farm · June 18, 2009, 12:11:58 AM

because the more I can learn about what makes a strong or weak hive, the better!

I wonder how much of this is due to timing. I have found that if I check the hive one day, several days later there is a totally different hive. I have seen many posts about how some queens are simply slow to start. This will certainly have an effect on how a hive appears to be progressing. This is one of the reasons I have many hives. As a hobbyist, I started with two hives and now I have 6. I thought that two was enough, but I found that more hives gives me a better perspective on what can (and will) happen with hives. It also has given me resources to help faltering hives.

MustbeeNuts · June 18, 2009, 07:04:44 PM

You know there was one other thing that no one mentioned, if the hive was started with a package or a nuc, a package of bees will go down hill for about a month or so, because the bees are dieing off. They aren't young fresh bees in the package, they are a collection of sucked up bees from many hives. sooo the first month the queen is starting to lay, and she can take a few weeks to really get down to business, in that case bees are dropping like,, errr well bees. once the queen has a good laying pattern down, and the brood start to hatch, they cover more frames == more brood to be able to care for, queen lays more, and then its full of young bees and away it goes, so it can look pretty dismall for a month or so till its up to power and production again.
Nucs on the otehr hand have less of an impact becuase it has five or seven frames already with brood and the queen is already doing her thing, it also might look slow till they get up to speed but again its more nurse bees =more brood bees cared for and away they go.

And one more thought, if they are being fed, and they need to pull wax, most of them will do wax work, and the food is right there, so less collection would be apparent, it would seem to me if they don't have a place to put it they wouldn't bring in that much.