I learned something yesterday. . .

[David Stokely]

I went completely through my 2 hives yesterday.  They both have 2 deeps and 1 medium.  These hives are packages that I installed on May 16th.  They seem like they are doing very well, with a continuing flow (of something as yet unidentified) and I quit feeding syrup and put the mediums on 2 weeks ago with the hope of getting a bit of honey.  Lots of activity on the landing board over the last week or two, but a disappointing amount of honey in the upper medium, so I had figured maybe they were backfilling the brood chamber.

Now I'm not sure about that either.  There seems to be lots of brood.  The upper deep on both hives is so heavy it was all I wanted just to move it.  I'm certain it must weigh a hundred pounds, but there is plenty of capped brood, open brood, and open cells.  It seems to be fine as far as having open space.  The lower brood chamber is surprisingly sparse (again in both hives).  It's like they moved into the upper super as soon as I put it on without finishing up the lower one.

What troubles me is that I found queen cells in both hives: 2 in the south hive and roughly 10 in the north hive.  These queen cells are both capped and open. . . open as in empty and open as in uncapped, but with a larva in them.  They are for the most part high on the frames (I remember only 1 low on the frames), so as not to suggest swarm cells, but as I understand it supercedure cells.

To the thing I learned, searching the back posts here, I never knew about reproductive swarms.  I only knew about swarming due to crowding.  I read this article linked to from a past post here at beemaster.com:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm

I thought that was a great article, very informative.  I learned a lot.

My question:

I don't know for sure, but I don't think they've swarmed yet.  The boxes are just full of bees, but when they've made queen cells is it too late for swarm prevention.  Should I just get ready to try and capture the soon to come swarm or entice them into a box? or can I still try to open up the brood box in the upper deep by interspercing empty frames between the full frames?

And what about the empty queen cells.  In my north hive there must be 4 or 5 empty queen cells.  Are there 4 or 5 virgin or newly mated queens running around the hive or did the old queen likely dispatch them as they emerged?  I know there's no way of telling for sure, but what is the likely scenario?

I hate to get in them 2 days in a row and really rip the boxes apart, but it looks like that's what I'm going to have to do.  I've really learned something here.

Not sure what to do?

:?

[David Stokely]

I didn't know what else to do and I didn't want to wait, so I shuffled the brood boxes moving 3 full frames of honey and brood from the upper deep down and 3 relatively empty frames from the lower deep up.

I did this on both the hives.  They were not happy being thus messed with twice in two days, but Oh well. . .I have yet to use any smoke in working my bees.  I do however spray them down while working them with a light 3:1 (water:sugar) + lemon grass solution (this is the same concentration as I feed my hummingbirds and I have taken leftover syrup from the spray bottle to the hummingbird feeder).  Between the two hives I think I only got stung maybe half a dozen times, but they were definitely much more upset today than yesterday.  When they begin getting in my face too much I spray them as they fly.  I don't want to cripple or blind them, therefore the light syrup solution, but I do want to give them something else to think about other than stinging me.

I'm also setting a medium super of waxed foundation (sprayed with sugar syrup and lemon grass oil) and an empty medium super near my north hive in the hopes that if they do swam, they'll choose this abode for their new quarters. . .

We will see. . . Gosh there is so much to learn about this beekeeping business. . .

:)

[Kathyp]

if i had to guess just from your description, i'd guess that your old queen is being replaced.  that  happens and sometimes we don't even know it.  some hives build queen cells and do nothing with them. they often begin building them, but never finish them.  usually they tear them out somewhere along the line.

any chance you took some pictures?

[sc-bee]

Here are some additional articles you may want to browse through. Some are about swarming and reproductive cut off. At the bottom of the link you mentioned you will see where MB mentioned an experiment on swarm prevention etc. I belive he and Walt Wright were discussing this experiment. I don't think he was able to get enough participants.

You see the mention of Walt Wright, here is a link to his articles:

http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/all%20walt%20articles.htm

>What troubles me is that I found queen cells in both hives: 2 in the south hive and roughly 10 in the north hive.  These queen cells are both capped and open. . . open as in empty and open as in uncapped, but with a larva in them.  They are for the most part high on the frames (I remember only 1 low on the frames), so as not to suggest swarm cells, but as I understand it supercedure cells.

There have been lots of post about swarm cells and supercedure the last 4-6 weeks or so on forum! Try a search using the word supercedure.

I have only been keeping bees five years ---- and the cell placement thing still confuses me :? Based on my limited experience (Disclaimer :-D) I would more suspect indications of supercedure on the hive with two cells. Ten cells seem like alot for supercedure. And based on what you said the cells are in various stages capped and open. Seems I read in a post earlier that supercedure cells are usually the same age (or close to the same development stage). Cells in all stages open and closed may indicate swarm.

>I don't know for sure, but I don't think they've swarmed yet.  The boxes are just full of bees, but when they've made queen cells is it too late for swarm prevention.  Should I just get ready to try and capture the soon to come swarm or entice them into a box?

If cells are already capped and it is swarm mode, there is usually nothing you can do to turn them around. Bees want to swarm --- reproduction instinct. Is it too late for a split in your area. Seek advice from local beeks and posters on timing in your area.



>And what about the empty queen cells.  In my north hive there must be 4 or 5 empty queen cells.  Are there 4 or 5 virgin or newly mated queens running around the hive or did the old queen likely dispatch them as they emerged?  I know there's no way of telling for sure, but what is the likely scenario?

And about the empty queen cells, are they hatched cells or just cups w/o larvae.

Hope maybe some of this helped and I am sure others will post soon :-D!

[David Stokely]

Sorry Kathyp I didn't get any pictures.  It got pretty intense at times and as much as I love taking pictures, I wanted to get out of there as soon as I could if you can relate. . . :)

sc-bee, I'm not clear on how to tell the difference between hatched queen cells and ones waiting for an egg?

I surely need to do some more reading.  This took me by surprise.

:?

[adgjoan]

why are you not using smoke?  That would of calmed them down quite a bit.  Thanks for posting about your experience.  I am learning a great deal through such posts.

Joan

[David Stokely]

adgjoan: Why not smoke?

I have nothing against using smoke.  When I last had bees 25 years ago, I used smoke absolutely every time I went into my hives.  At that time I also used a full bee suit, veil, and shoulder gloves if I was only going to peek in at them and I still got stung up quite a bit. 

These bees that I have today, by comparison are so generally gentle and calm that just to check the honey super or to do a superficial checking of a couple of frames in the top brood box I don't even use a veil or gloves and they don't sting me at all. 

For as much ripping around as I was doing in the brood boxes today (after also being completely though both brood chambers yesterday), I didn't think that 3 stings at each hive was much at all.  They were definitely more defensive and quicker to rise up today than yesterday.  There is also, to my experience, a limit to what smoke can do for you.  I mean it can help, but once you get to a certain point of disturbing them there will be at least a few who are going to let loose on you.

To tell you the truth I was pretty happy to get out of there like I did.

:)

[sc-bee]

sc-bee, I'm not clear on how to tell the difference between hatched queen cells and ones waiting for an egg?

The hatched cell should be longer and more tapered at once sealed end. The bees thin it out on the end just before the queen emerges. It will usually have ragged looking papery edges at the bottom.

A cup is the start of a queen cell minus egg or larvae. Bees often build cups just to have on standby. They are open and have not yet been extended.

I hope this makes sense ---- sorry no photo's.