Lost a Hive - Need Advice

sarafina · February 18, 2011, 08:55:21 PM

I only have 2 hives and lost one over the winter. It was the weaker of the two going into winter but had plenty of stores. Not sure what happened but at this point would like some advice on how to get back up to two hives again. (The hive was empty when I opened it)

I could buy a 3# package and queen but can't get them until April. My other hive is going gangbusters and dragging in lots of pollen, so some of the bees from the weaker hive may have already drifted over there. Should I wait until the drones are flying and split it and let them make their own queen? How do I know when there are enough bees to split (if this is my best option)? I don't want to weaken my strong hive - on the other hand it may swarm anyway if I don't do something......

Pond Creek Farm · February 19, 2011, 11:37:44 AM

I have a similar situation here in Missouri. I have been doing the package bee thing with limited success, but this year I have a local nuc supplier selling me three 5 frame nucs. They will be ready in early May, so around here that is time to build up well and maybe even produce a modest crop. You might check with your local association to see who will ahve nucs and when. Otherwise, you could simply start a package or two on the drawn comb from your other hive provided it did not die from a disease that can be passed on to the new hive.

sarafina · February 19, 2011, 11:56:05 AM

As far as I know there was no disease - they started dwindling in numbers towards the end of the season and I was hoping they would make a new queen. I was planning on re-queening this spring but they didn't make it. I need to freeze the frames as the wax moths had moved in after they honey was robbed out.

I just got an email from a friend who does cut-outs. I worked with her Dad for many years and helped her do a cut-out at work in an abandoned house. I asked her if she could sell me some bees and she offered to give me some. :-D Now I just need to figure out what I need equipment-wise to go get them and bring them back to my hive. I sure didn't want to wait until April to start wit a package if I didn't have to.

Thanks for your reply and good luck with your bees this year.

Acebird · February 19, 2011, 12:22:51 PM

QuoteI only have 2 hives and lost one over the winter.

I think us small fry hobbyist run into this dilemma a lot. My concern is bringing in strange bees and not knowing if it will be detrimental to the one good hive you have left. That is why I am leaning toward splitting my one hive and possibly making back up nucs. It would be nice to get a consensus on which is a better way to go, get another nuc or split the good hive.

lenape13 · February 19, 2011, 12:34:11 PM

Quote from: sarafina on February 19, 2011, 11:56:05 AM
As far as I know there was no disease - they started dwindling in numbers towards the end of the season and I was hoping they would make a new queen. I was planning on re-queening this spring but they didn't make it. I need to freeze the frames as the wax moths had moved in after they honey was robbed out.

I just got an email from a friend who does cut-outs. I worked with her Dad for many years and helped her do a cut-out at work in an abandoned house. I asked her if she could sell me some bees and she offered to give me some. :-D Now I just need to figure out what I need equipment-wise to go get them and bring them back to my hive. I sure didn't want to wait until April to start wit a package if I didn't have to.

Thanks for your reply and good luck with your bees this year.

Depending on the amount of bees, you can transport them in a nuc box and transfer them to your hive upon your return. You could also use a one-brood box hive, but that would be more awkward to transport. I keep a couple of the cardboard nuc boxes on hand to transport small cut-outs or swarms, and use deep brood boxes for bigger catches. If you screen them off, you can easily transfer them in a car. I usually just pop the boxes in the back seat of my Geo. (Of course, for the occasional nasty bees, I use the Jeep and my trailer...LOL :-D )

sarafina · February 19, 2011, 02:26:57 PM

What about splitting my strong hive? How do you know if there are enough bees to split?

lenape13 · February 19, 2011, 02:40:06 PM

If you can find a queen somewhere, splitting might be a good option. If you want to let them raise their own queen, you would need to wait until you see drones. That would be a good indicator that any other bees in the area would also be producing drones. If you're not seeing any drones around, any queen they would raise might not get mated, or be poorly mated, which would not be a good thing.

As for the amount of bees to enable a split, that is pretty much a judgement call. Without seeing your population, I would not like to hazard an opinion. Personally, I wait until my hive is booming to split and remove 3 frames of brood and eggs, two more with stores and place them in with five empty frames. After that, they seem to take off and thrive. I started with 4 hives two years ago, and am now up to 15. With your longer season, you could easily pass me in a few years, if you are so inclined.... Of coure, I also have brought in outside genetics with some feral colonies and bees from other sources.

sarafina · February 19, 2011, 08:13:50 PM

I had to replace a queen because the hive was too hot to work - would pop me through my gloves just for taking the top off and that was after smoking them. I was real happy with my queen from Walter Kelly and it was only $25 including shipping. They are still outside the Africanized areas, which is why I ordered from them instead of going local.

I thought about getting another one from there and splitting but will wait a few weeks as it is still early and not much blooming yet. Won't be long around here, though. Or I may take my friend up on her offer of free bees...... decisions.... decisions..... :?

lenape13 · February 19, 2011, 08:25:24 PM

I'd go for the free bees. You can never have too many...... 8-)

Pond Creek Farm · February 20, 2011, 11:05:15 AM

I agree. Take the free ones for sure. You can split the strong hive too, but why say no to free bees?

Robo · February 20, 2011, 12:11:26 PM

Quote from: sarafina on February 19, 2011, 11:56:05 AM
As far as I know there was no disease - they started dwindling in numbers towards the end of the season and I was hoping they would make a new queen. I was planning on re-queening this spring but they didn't make it. I need to freeze the frames as the wax moths had moved in after they honey was robbed out.

Sara,

Please don't take this personal or as an "I told you so". That is not the intent.

This sounds like a queen failure to me based upon your observations from the Fall. I personally believe that a lot of winter failures are do to queen failures, but are wrongly diagnosed as weather or moisture related. I don't know the history of the queen that perished, but you mention splitting and letting them make their own queen. I know there are a lot of proponents of doing splits and letting the bees make their own emergency queen. Although they are capable of doing it, that does not mean they are great or even good queens. I'll argue that emergency queens do not happen that often in feral colonies and when they do, there is no indication that they are greatly successful. It is estimated that roughly 25% of swarms survive the first winter. Can that 75% failure rate be partially attributed to the fact that after they swarmed, they superseded the queen?
Even poor queens can function well and appear "good" when conditions are optimal. When the weather starts changing is when the good are separated from the bad.

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/can-you-afford-emergency-queens/

I would not split your good hive, regardless if you let them raise an emergency queen or provide them a reared queen. The only exception is if they do indeed intend to swarm and build swarm cells, then you could.

Free bees are always good, and especially if they have wintered over as ferals.

I am also not promoting buying queens from far away. Though I do confess, I do not live in AHB areas, so that could very well play a part in your decision. I personally prefer using local queens that are acclimated to my environment. Now that might be a bigger factor for me since I am in the North, and AHB is probably a bigger factor for you. If you have any other beekeepers close, you can team up to raise your own queens. It doesn't take a lot to make a few queens.

Best of luck getting your hive count up.

sarafina · February 20, 2011, 12:35:34 PM

Quote from: Robo on February 20, 2011, 12:11:26 PM
Quote from: sarafina on February 19, 2011, 11:56:05 AM
As far as I know there was no disease - they started dwindling in numbers towards the end of the season and I was hoping they would make a new queen. I was planning on re-queening this spring but they didn't make it. I need to freeze the frames as the wax moths had moved in after they honey was robbed out.

Sara,

Please don't take this personal or as an "I told you so". That is not the intent.

This sounds like a queen failure to me based upon your observations from the Fall. I personally believe that a lot of winter failures are do to queen failures, but are wrongly diagnosed as weather or moisture related. I don't know the history of the queen that perished, but you mention splitting and letting them make their own queen. I know there are a lot of proponents of doing splits and letting the bees make their own emergency queen. Although they are capable of doing it, that does not mean they are great or even good queens. I'll argue that emergency queens do not happen that often in feral colonies and when they do, there is no indication that they are greatly successful. It is estimated that roughly 25% of swarms survive the first winter. Can that 75% failure rate be partially attributed to the fact that after they swarmed, they superseded the queen?
Even poor queens can function well and appear "good" when conditions are optimal. When the weather starts changing is when the good are separated from the bad.

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/can-you-afford-emergency-queens/

I would not split your good hive, regardless if you let them raise an emergency queen or provide them a reared queen. The only exception is if they do indeed intend to swarm and build swarm cells, then you could.

Free bees are always good, and especially if they have wintered over as ferals.

I am also not promoting buying queens from far away. Though I do confess, I do not live in AHB areas, so that could very well play a part in your decision. I personally prefer using local queens that are acclimated to my environment. Now that might be a bigger factor for me since I am in the North, and AHB is probably a bigger factor for you. If you have any other beekeepers close, you can team up to raise your own queens. It doesn't take a lot to make a few queens.

Best of luck getting your hive count up.

Thank-you for your reply and I never take offense at advice offered!

I think I will take my friends offer of bees and leave my other hive alone. unless they look like they may swarm.

The hive that failed was started from a package in the Spring of 2008 and they re-queened themselves in 2009. It was a strong hive and produced a lot of honey last year, but then started to dwindle in numbers in the Fall - may have been some drifting to the other hive - not sure. Had plenty of honey stores when I checked during a warm spell in Jan but I was surprised at how few bees there were compared to the other hive so it was not totally unexpected.

The bees from my friend will be feral bees and she does not treat so they will also be varroa-resistant. She gets so many bees from cutouts that they either make it or not and if they are not varroa-resistant then they don't. We opened up some brood on the cut-out I helped her with and didn't find a single mite.

Robo · February 20, 2011, 01:00:45 PM

Quote from: sarafina on February 20, 2011, 12:35:34 PM
The hive that failed was started from a package in the Spring of 2008 and they re-queened themselves in 2009. It was a strong hive and produced a lot of honey last year, but then started to dwindle in numbers in the Fall - may have been some drifting to the other hive - not sure. Had plenty of honey stores when I checked during a warm spell in Jan but I was surprised at how few bees there were compared to the other hive so it was not totally unexpected.

Ya, Fall is when the winter bees are reared, so good brooding in the Fall is key to winter survival.

Quote
The bees from my friend will be feral bees and she does not treat so they will also be varroa-resistant. She gets so many bees from cutouts that they either make it or not and if they are not varroa-resistant then they don't. We opened up some brood on the cut-out I helped her with and didn't find a single mite.

Sounds like you have a good local source, I'm sure there are many folks that are envious. Good luck.

Don't be concerned if you have a good feral with mites. The oldest feral I have ever seen had what I would consider a lot of mites for the size of the cluster.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,9430.0.html