Foundation VS. Foundationless

ronwhite3030 · May 26, 2011, 11:28:47 PM

So I have used foundation and foundatonless in my hive this yea, I alternated them in the hive and they seem to skip the foundationless and go right to the foundation to draw it out and fill it while on the foundationless they draw it out very slowly. For my beekeeping I will stick to foundation as it works best for me the savings of not using foundation will lose me more money in the end because of how slow it takes my bees to draw out foundationless. I would like to here people's thoughts on this that do use foundationless and if this was only in the beginning or if my bees just like foundation better.

Kathyp · May 26, 2011, 11:35:32 PM

i only do foundationless in the brood boxes and for the most part in the honey supers. how quickly they draw it out depends on the flow, but if that's all they have, they'll get at it fast. i don't mix, although i will put a sheet in an empty hive to get them started...sometimes. sometimes i just dump a swarm on bare wood frames.

do what works for you.

hardwood · May 26, 2011, 11:36:06 PM

You are experiencing the exact opposite of what I have found. In all cases my bees have drawn their own way before they touch the foundation. Go figure.

Scott

ronwhite3030 · May 26, 2011, 11:41:46 PM

I was hoping u would chime in on this scott I thought It was the exact opposite of what you experienced, darn bees don't think alike, from one owner to another.

caticind · May 27, 2011, 12:04:17 PM

Agreed with Scott. When offered a choice, my bees have always left the foundation alone and swiftly drawn their own comb. The distinction is even more notable when the foundation or frame is plastic.

AliciaH · May 27, 2011, 12:32:45 PM

If I wanted to start introducing foundationless in my brood chambers, it that the best way to do it...to checkboard the already drawn frames? Would I have to do a full checkerboarding, or can I start by simply replacing the older foundation I want to get rid of?

VolunteerK9 · May 27, 2011, 01:54:05 PM

Quote from: AliciaH on May 27, 2011, 12:32:45 PM
If I wanted to start introducing foundationless in my brood chambers, it that the best way to do it...to checkboard the already drawn frames? Would I have to do a full checkerboarding, or can I start by simply replacing the older foundation I want to get rid of?

I usually only put a couple in at a time. Place one foundationless frame between two capped brood frames.

boca · May 27, 2011, 05:37:08 PM

I have also tried the staring strip on a few frames. They built 100 % drone cells. Now I have a nice bunch of boys.

mushmushi · May 27, 2011, 08:29:32 PM

Quote from: boca on May 27, 2011, 05:37:08 PM
I have also tried the staring strip on a few frames. They built 100 % drone cells. Now I have a nice bunch of boys.

I had the same issue too so I kept adding more foundationless frames. They will start building worker comb.

One thing I noticed, they seemed to have stopped building drone comb attached to the bottom of the frame.

AR Beekeeper · May 28, 2011, 08:14:25 PM

I am glad someone else has bees that prefer to draw foundation rather than draw foundationless comb, I thought mine were the only ones that did not read the forums. My bees always draw the Pierco foundations before doing the foundationless frames. The queen will usually have the foundation combs laid out before the natural comb is half drawn. It doesn't matter if I hive a swarm in a 5 frame nuc box or in a 10 frame Langstroth, the foundations get preference.

tillie · May 28, 2011, 09:23:30 PM

I'd love to hear Michael Bush chime in on this - I always find that mine prefer foundationless. Now if there's not a flow going, the bees won't build on anything but with foundationless and a flow, I can put a box on a hive on Tuesday and it's drawn out fully and being filled by Friday......

I put a drawn comb in the middle of the box when I put a new box on with foundationless in the rest of the frames and they'll draw and use the foundationless frames over the drawn comb....I like to think because they can draw what they need to.

I also haven't had the reported experience in this thread of the bees only drawing drone comb on foundationless. They do sometimes draw drone comb if they need drones but generally they draw what they need. I'm wondering since my bees tend to draw comb for honey in big cells if you are confusing honey comb with brood comb for drones.

Linda T in Atlanta

tina · May 28, 2011, 11:24:30 PM

I've only had my hive a few months so am not an experienced but was amazed how quickly mine draw foundationless and how they avoid the foundation.

Michael Bush · May 30, 2011, 10:47:12 AM

I have always seen the draw foundationless faster. With bees you always have to take into account differences such as a flow, or not, or the time of year. Even hive to hive one will be going gangbusters and another not. If they have no reason to draw comb, it won't matter if it's foundationless or foundation. If they do have a reason, I've never seen them drawn foundation as fast as foundationless.

wadehump · May 30, 2011, 03:27:08 PM

I caught 2 swarms on the 5th of may starter strips only in both swarms. on the 28th of may i had to add supers to both hives all of the deeps are drawn and full. we are in the middle of a major flow right now i am hoping to get a super of honey from these 2 hives this fall.

boca · May 31, 2011, 04:50:49 PM

I believe the huge sheet of a perfect Langstroth foundation makes them believe it is a wall, since they don't see the other side. On the other side other bees think the same, so it remain cold and unfriendly. By festoning and moving from side to side they have the feeling it is a real comb they dream about.
We can use foundation and at the same time satisfy the bees need to see their work from both side. We have to cut a few holes which makes possible the communication. Before the comb is finished the holes are filled too.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/applecorer_printversion.html

I cut out holes near the top and a couple of them about half high and they preferred to start with the foundation.

boca · June 02, 2011, 08:52:37 AM

This photo is a good example of how the holes are filled as they draw the foundation with holes. Originally each half frame had five holes. Three at the top and two in the center. On the right half all holes are filled, while on the left there is one almost finished and other two still large.

Grieth · June 02, 2011, 09:03:49 AM

The link in clickable form

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/applecorer_printversion.html

Has anyone used this idea?

Intheswamp · June 26, 2011, 09:50:32 AM

boca and Grieth, thank you for the images and the link. I'm a rank newbie studying and preparing to start some hives in the spring of 2012. I've been debating whether to go with foundations or to go foundationless. The idea of communication between the different sides of the foundations seems logical to me. This might just push me towards using foundations.

Thanks again for the info!
Ed