Should I feed? First timer

[Algonam]

Hi.
On Friday I installed 2 nucs into 2 hives. First time doing any of this. I have no experience and nobody who has knowledge to come along and guide me.
The day I installed, it was cloudy and wet, and has been rainy since then, and rain is forecasted for another day and then sunshine starting on Tuesday.

I now have a few questions.

How often should I remove the lids and look inside?
What am I looking for?
Should I feed them? (I don't have a feeder) (No local supplier here either)
......or will they be just fine until Tuesday when the sun comes out again. Here in Eastern Ontario (Canada) the apple blossom and lilac are blooming, as well as dandilions are starting. It has been a wet Spring.
Thats all for now. I will have more questions I am sure, once I receive some guidance (from you!)

AM


That

[FRAMEshift]

If there was some honey in the nucs, they will be ok till Tuesday.  Bees can't forage in the rain and they have to eat, so just make sure they have either honey or sugar syrup when they can't forage.   

You will need to feed at some point, so I suggest you go ahead and set up some means of feeding sugar syrup.  I use Miller top feeders but I think that would not be a good solution in your colder climate.  I will leave suggestions on cold-climate feeding to those who have done it.

[Kathyp]

two ways to feed in cold climates that i have found successful, easy, and cheap.   :-D  when temp is over 50  any kind of large glass jar with several small holes in the lid do a fine job.  you may 1.  use them over the hole in the inner cover (my preference) or 2. use them on top of the frames with another box/lid covering. (allows use of multiple jars).

in winter i use dry sugar.  i put it on even if i think they have plenty of store.

when you put the frames in the hive you needed to evaluate the amount of brood and the amount of stored honey and pollen.  if all 5 frames are brood, it wouldn't hurt to feed some.  if you had stores on the frames with the brood, then you are probably ok. 

how often to look is an individual thing.  when you are starting out, looking more often helps you learn.  later, you can go several weeks without opening the hives.  when you do go back out, take a camera and take pics of the frames you pull.  you will see so much more looking at those pics on your computer later. 

remember to pull end frames first so that you can slide the frames over before picking them up. you will roll/squish fewer bees and they will be happier  :-D

[Riggs]

~take a camera and take pics of the frames you pull.  you will see so much more looking at those pics on your computer later.~
Thats exactly what i do, you can magnify and see brood, eggs ect. that I might miss with my naked eye.

[Algonam]

So, is it safe to say that it wouldn't hurt to feed them now, no matter what the weather? They were installed on Friday. How long do I feed them for? How long can I expect 1 quart of sugar/water to last on a new hive?

Thanks for your help.

AM

[Kathyp]

if you are concerned and you have 5 empty frames, nothing will be lost by feeding them for a couple of days.  it would be better if you knew what was in the hive and based your decision on that.

if they are hungry, the will take a quart down quickly.  if they are not, it will sit there and mold. 

be very careful that you do not over feed.  if the hive gets filled with food and there is no place for the queen to lay, they will swarm on you.

[Finski]

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So you have there 2 nucs. How many frames, five  I suppose?

Here in Finland dandelions are in full bloom and apple trees show first flowers.

In five frame nuc it chould be one full frame of food. Not more. Otherwise it stucks laying space.

If bees fill 5 frame, they need extra movable wall that heat do not escape from brood.
How the colony grows, it depens on how old are brood when nuc has been founded.

Keep the hive warm. No extra space. It grows with its own speed. You cannot accelerate it.

Keep ventilation small, entrance max 1 cm x 5 cm. No mesh floor. Keep upper insulation.

When frame caps are filled evenly with bees, add then one or two foundations.

[Finski]

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If you get polystyrene hives there, get them. They are best in your climate.

[Brian D. Bray]

When feeding bees please remember the following tidbits of information that you will not find in books.

1. A newly hived 3 lb package will occupy 4-5 frames in the hive.
2. The bees will only draw comb on the frames which they occupy.
3. Bees will not willing move off of brood frames.
4. Bees will readily move off of storage combs.
5. If there are not enough bees in a hive to occupy another frame they will not draw comb on it.
6. Feed the bees only long enough for them to draw out the frames which they occupy. 
7. Continued feeding at this point will cause the bees to backfill the brood chamber, making it honey bound, and they will not be able to increase the population because the brood chamber is full of stores.
8. In a 10 frame hive the outer 2 frames (1 on each side) are primarily storage combs.
9. Then move the outer 2 frames (storage combs) outward one frame width and replace with undrawn combs.
10. The bees will then draw out those 2 frames leaving the hive with 4-5 brood frames and 2 storage frames.
11. They will not develop the hive beyond that point until the population has increased sufficiently to force the bees onto frames beyond those 4-5 frames and then only by moving the storage frames outward and replacing with undrawn frames.
12. When the last 2 frames are move inside the storage frames super the hive.
13. Do not feed, feeding can still cause a honey bound condition. 
14. If you must feed at this point then feed for a few days and remove feeder for the same amount of days thereby causing the bees to process and consume what was fed to them so as not to become honey bound.
15. A honey bound hive can not grow, no place for the queen to lay eggs, so the population dwindles and the hive could eventually die.
16. One of the causes of winter hive loss is overfeeding the hive at the time the hive should be rearing it's overwintering population.  The lack of late grown brood is not sufficient to sustain a cluster of a size necessary for surviving through the winter.  Come Spring the hive is found with a very small but deceased cluster with signs of dead bees throughout the hive and on the bottom board.

[Finski]

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I looked the forecast of Ottawa. Weather is very warm, even if it rains sometimes.
No worry about heat of the colony.

You should inspect the hive on nice day when temp is over 17C and it is sun.

Look how many frames covered with bees
how many frames food as a summa
how many frames brood and capped brood.

This helps us to know the state of the hive.

Was it a nuc with combs? How many frames?

[Algonam]

Nucs came with 4 frames - bees were strong I was told.

The hives are 10 framefull sized hives but I have only put in 9 frames leaving them lots of room. (I was told to do so)
My concern has been the wet weather. I am currently feeding them using the upside down jar method with 7 small holes in lids - over the rounf feeder hole on the inner cover.
Bees were active today on and around the hives.

I was suprised to see many ants already. Is this an issue?

I feel I will continue with questions for quite a while.....just a warning...!!

AM

[Kathyp]

9 frames in a 10 frame hive will give you lots of burr comb and bridge comb.  whoever told you that was nuts.  you may do that in the honey super where they will build the comb out deeper and store more honey.  in the brood boxes they will simply make a mess.  your frames should be pushed together toward the middle of the box....if you choose to stay with 9, you should still have them tight together with any extra space on the outside...where they will still make burr comb, but at least not mess up your frames.

next warm day, check and see what they have stored and how much brood you have.  your decision on feeding more should be based on what you observe.

[Algonam]

This info came from an experienced beekeeper - 20 yrs exp.
I seemed to have lots of room, maybe I should re-adjust them all and add the 10th to one end?

AM

[Kathyp]

it is up to you.  that's what i would do.  you may leave it at 9, but you will regret leaving spaces between the frames.  however, i am never one to discourage experimentation  :-D  it might get very messy, but it won't kill the bees...

[Algonam]

So, how about the ants? They are regular black ants. My stands are new lumber and my hives are old hand downs but have been cleaned up,  and painted on the outside.
Do ants cause problems for bees or honey production?

[Finski]

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I have experince too, 48 years.

Much space, - why...

4 frame nuc is in special situation. It is really a small colony. Almost minimum.

if I have so small hives at the end of May, I would join those two hives. So they get a good start and the hive will be normal in July, about 4-5 boxes. Then you may do a nuc  again.

Feeding, good weather  do not help the colonies because they are too small. Too big space will slow down badly the build up.

Ants - - - when bees have too wide space, they cannot defend the hive. If combs are occupyed, bees kill every ant, wasp or bumble bee which try to come eate honey. Unoccupied frames are free to acces.

Just now my biggest hives have 4 boxes full of bees.

5 frame wintered hives have only one box and I have aided them with big hive brood frames. They have reared brood 2 months and they are not bigger.

So your hive June, end of July ..... After two months hives are not very big.

I would ask if the hive seller would sell more frames with bees. 6 frames of bees is clearly better than 4 frames.

[Algonam]

Yesterday morning, It was rainy and more rain was forecasted so I fed them 2/1 Sugar/water heated up and stirred.
Tonight I found that each of the 2 hives took a  full jar in 24hrs. Each jar was 500ml.
I was shocked, and didn't go there prepared to give them more....I just went to set up fencing etc and check on the jars.
Now the weather has changed and it is sunny and hot and humid, and this weather is now expected for the balance of the week.
I don't know if I should just leave them alone or continue to feed them sugar water.
I have no experience and keep thinking I've done something that will harm them (like too much sugar/water)
At this point I am questioning everything I am doing.
I got there at 7:30 this evening, 1.5 hrs before sunset. It was overcast, and the hives were buzzing inside but no activity outside of hives nor on hives. For some reason I thought I'd see more activity around the hives.

[iddee]

Put the tenth frame in and position them tightly together in the center, leaving the empty space equally on both sides. Check for honey and nectar. If they have food, quit feeding. The bees will take care of the ants if conditions of the hive are correct.

[Brian D. Bray]

This info came from an experienced beekeeper - 20 yrs exp.
I seemed to have lots of room, maybe I should re-adjust them all and add the 10th to one end?

AM

If your experienced beekeeper actually has 20 years experience, and is still putting 9 frames in the brood box, that would indicate he doesn't learn from what he sees in the beehive. 
I've been keeping bees for over 50 years, and my experience, learned from the bees themselves, says 9 frames in the brood chamber is asking for problems of every kind.   
Any person who advocates 9 frames in a 10 frame box is not using good math.  It might make it easier to uncap the combs, once you've pried apart the frames, but you don't get any more honey.  When using 9 frames in a 10 frame super you get all kinds of creative bridge and burr combs which makes the process of removing the combs from the box difficult.  Also, the combs are drawn out wavy, that is, the depth of the combs will be very shallow in one place and way deep in another.  When you have a shallow spot on one frame and the frame next to it has extra long comb opposite the shallow spot then pulling the frames without damaging combs and frames gets problematic.  The bees can actually lock the frames together so they fit like teeth on a key.

[Algonam]

WOW, you guys are serious eh.....
I installed these bees on Friday. Hopefully it won't be too late by Thursday for me to pass by again and adjust to fit in the 10th frame.
They aren't in my yard at home.

Thanks for all of your great help!!