Ferals and Opinions on possible new genotypes

David McLeod · June 01, 2011, 09:25:58 PM

I am beginning to believe that these ferals I am cutting out may represent a specific regional adaptation or genotype (subspecies?).

Opinions, please.

AllenF · June 01, 2011, 09:42:29 PM

Personally I really don't think that there are much of sub species any more. Look at how many of the bees get moves all over the country. Queens and packages are shipped to all over from south Georgia. Well over half of the commercial hives are in the almonds for a month together and then moved all over. There are just too many mutts out there bred from every stray drone looking for some.

iddee · June 01, 2011, 10:08:13 PM

I think all ferals are more resistant to mites than they were in the late eighties when the mites got here. If they weren't, they wouldn't be here. I don't know if you'd call it a subspecies or just an adaptation.

AllenF · June 01, 2011, 10:18:28 PM

Adaptation. Bees that were not hardy enough to the pests are gone now. We have bred the survivors and brought in new genes from Russia.

Kathyp · June 01, 2011, 11:27:23 PM

on no!!! the dreaded adaptation vs. evolution debate :evil:

i vote adaptation.

iddee · June 01, 2011, 11:29:39 PM

oops!

Michael Bush · June 02, 2011, 12:17:03 AM

I vote for selection...

FRAMEshift · June 02, 2011, 08:37:34 AM

What debate? Adaptation, selection, and evolution are all aspects of the same thing:

Adaptation is the evolutionary process whereby a population becomes better suited to its habitat.[1][2] This process takes place over many generations,[3] and is one of the basic phenomena of biology.[4]

The term adaptation may also refer to a feature which is especially important for an organism's survival and reproduction.[5] For example, the adaptation of horses' teeth to the grinding of grass, or their ability to run fast and escape predators. Such adaptations are produced in a variable population by the better suited forms reproducing more successfully, that is, by natural selection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation

Evolution requires overpopulation, variation of traits, and then selection based on that variation. When selection takes place with regard to a particular selection pressure we happen to be focused on, we say that the resulting evolution represents an adaptation to that pressure.

D Semple · June 02, 2011, 09:17:40 AM

All I know is Ferals are booming in Kansas City.

I'm seeing lots of very healthy colonies doing removals and catching swarms with tiny little bees. Lots of brood comb in the 4.6 - 4.9 mm range.

Don

http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj72/DSemple/Bees%202011/

Kathyp · June 02, 2011, 10:27:21 AM

FRAME, you can have adaptation without an evolutionary change. you can prove adaptation, where as evolution has some holes in it. and....were off....to the coffee house....or not :evil:

FRAMEshift · June 02, 2011, 11:16:05 AM

Quote from: kathyp on June 02, 2011, 10:27:21 AM
FRAME, you can have adaptation without an evolutionary change. you can prove adaptation, where as evolution has some holes in it. and....were off....to the coffee house....or not :evil:

Seems on topic to me as long as we're talking about genotypes. What is an example of an adaptation without an evolutionary change? If it's a heritable genetic change, that is evolution. If it's not a heritable genetic change, I don't see how you could call it an adaptation. They are the same thing. If you don't see it that way, I suspect it's a difference in definitions. And of course it's precisely those semantic skirmishes that are coffee house material. :-D

iddee · June 02, 2011, 11:56:34 AM

""What is an example of an adaptation without an evolutionary change?""

House breaking a puppy........

forrestcav · June 02, 2011, 12:20:31 PM

seems like adaptation or "survival of the fittest" and it would lead to an evolutionary change. Say if you were to raise bees that have adapted well to mites and over time those genetic traits were to be spread throughout the country. Then you would have caused the species to move from adaptation to evolution. When we get all bees resistant to mites then they will have evolved. IMHO

Kathyp · June 02, 2011, 12:40:36 PM

Quote""What is an example of an adaptation without an evolutionary change?""

i have adapted to living in the PNW by adding a layer of fat! :-D

survivor bees have developed ways to deal with mites. they have developed immunities to mite carried diseases. that does not mean that there has been an evolutionary change in the species. now....if the survivor bees developed extra legs to deal with mite infestation, that would be a different thing!

we have different genetics among people. eye color, disease, etc. even so, we are the same species.

preston39 · June 02, 2011, 12:57:53 PM

I am convinced that God built in change/adaptation in His fantastic/great design. He used what we call Natural Selection as the process of application. We see it in a variety of species.

Many are missled, I am afraid, by Darwin dubbing it evolution...which he at last, recanted (argueably).

Kathyp · June 02, 2011, 01:14:38 PM

most of what Darwin wrote was about natural selection. he had a theory that this might lead to the change (evolution) of species. he was not wrong about natural selection leading to changes in survivability of a species. his observations were interesting, but science, they were not. however, it fit nicely with the times. and...they knew nothing of genetics at that time.

"science" has ever since tried to take Darwins little theory and create a scenario of mud to man. so far, they have failed and the more we understand of genetics, the less likely the mud to man theory becomes.

FRAMEshift · June 02, 2011, 03:04:17 PM

Quote from: kathyp on June 02, 2011, 01:14:38 PM
"science" has ever since tried to take Darwins little theory and create a scenario of mud to man. so far, they have failed and the more we understand of genetics, the less likely the mud to man theory becomes.

Ok, I guess you were right about this being a "Coffee House" topic. So Kathy, you can go on over there and wait for me. I'll be along later. :evil:

Kathyp · June 02, 2011, 03:38:14 PM

we have danced this dance, but i'll be there if you want to do it again :evil:

CapnChkn · June 02, 2011, 11:49:07 PM

Adaptation.

The problem here is the DNA replicating itself as a dominant factor. Resistance to mites is not a determined factor in any subspecies of Mellifera. The only evolutionary resistance to mites are in Cerana. In other words, if we take any resistant "breed" of Mellifera and place it in a controlled environment with NO varroa, it's likely the later generations will lose that resistance.

David McLeod · June 03, 2011, 12:09:59 AM

Wow, not the can of worms I wanted to open. I was just wondering if the many subspecies/races imported into this country have merged into the feral population to the point of becoming some sort of homogeneous landrace or genotype. I think so at least from the ferals I am seeing. They appear to me to be all of the same type in size color and behavior at this point. Any other observations?