Supercedure Cells, Virgin Queens

[leechmann]

I was doing some hive inspections today. I had a couple of hives that had supercedure cells in them, on the sides of the frames. I looked through the hive and saw no larva or eggs. I then saw a new queen in each of the hives scurrying about. I wasn't sure what to do next. I decided to cut the unhatched queen cells out. One of my questions is, should I have left the unhatched cells alone?

I took the unhatched cells and placed them on the hive cover on the adjacent hive. It wasn't long and I noticed a queen emerging from one of these cells. Then another and another. I placed them in queen cages and I made a queen bank. Has anyone experienced this before. It seems if you handle those queen cells, if the queen is about ready, they are coming out, now!

Thanks Leechmann

[Dange]

Maybe you could ship one to sarahm, I think she might need one you could pm her if you want to. Just a thought

[hankdog1]

I probably would have left them alone unless I was in need of a queen.  My luck is it never happens at the right time.  If you don't get those queens in a hive or mating nuc soon they aren't gonna be worth having.  It is imparitive that she mates ASAP as you wait too long one of two things will happen she will eigther mate and be a poor queen or not mate and be a drone laying queen.  Eigther way need to get them mated.

[Michael Bush]

I always leave them alone.  They will end up queenless if you don't.

[L Daxon]

I agree with MB.  I don't understand the compulsion to cut out supersedure cells.  If the girls think they need a new queen, I think they know about that much better than I do.  I let them do their thing.

As for swarm cells, by the time you see them it is usually too late to stop the swarm impulse, unless you want to do a false swarm and create a new hive.  If you are not wanting another hive or nuc and therefore don't want to do a split, cutting out the swarm queen cells could leave you queenless if the old queen leaves with the swarm and has stopped laying several days before she leaves.

Until I get to where I can read the girls' minds, I plan on leaving queen cells alone.

[leechmann]

I always leave them alone.  They will end up queenless if you don't.

Michael, are you referring to the supercedure cells, or all queen cells? In the case i mentioned above, i have found the virgin queens in the hives, then i took the extra queen cells out.

[FRAMEshift]

In the case i mentioned above, i have found the virgin queens in the hives, then i took the extra queen cells out.

I guess the question is, why did you remove them?  What were you trying to accomplish or what did you think would happen if you didn't remove them?  The bees are raising queen cells for a reason.  They either want to swarm (which you won't stop by removing the cells) or they want to replace the queen because she is not performing well.

If there are extra virgin queens, are you afraid they will lead afterswarms?   I don't know that you would stop those by removing all the extra virgins. 

The only time I would remove a queen cell would be if I wanted to use it to start a new hive/nuc and I wouldn't take all of them.  Or, if you don't like the genetics of a hive, you could remove the queen cells and replace them with a new queen or different queen cells from another hive.

[joebrown]

If you have a good laying queen in the hive that you want to keep, then I do not see why you could not take the queen cells. Your problem, and probably Michael's point, is that you do not have a laying queen in the hive. What happens if she is killed during mating or does not mate well. You have no eggs for them to start over. I had a similar experience this week and I made splits. However, I knew my old queen was gone, the hive was full of eggs, all ages of larva, and capped brood. Their was two queens and queen cells and one of the queens was definitely mated and laying. Rare circumstance.

Also, from my research, you only want to bank mated queens. Preferably, queens that are mated and been able to lay for at least 10 days or so. I have been picking Michael Bush's brain in the Queen Rearing Forum lately!

[FRAMEshift]

If you have a good laying queen in the hive that you want to keep, then I do not see why you could not take the queen cells.

If you have a good laying queen, then why are the bees making queen cells?  Either there is something wrong with the eggs she is laying, or the hive is about to swarm.  If the queen cells are capped, the queen is probably gone already, or will very soon and you don't stop that by removing the cells.

[joebrown]

She may or may not be gone. In Leechmann's case he has a queen. Maybe they were going to swarm, but had not done so yet. I have stopped several hives from swarming by removing a few frames with queen cells and I know a lot of people on here advise that as well. I do not believe in removing all queen cells, but in certain circumstances it is advantageous and beneficial!

[FRAMEshift]

I have stopped several hives from swarming by removing a few frames with queen cells

Capped queen cells?  Generally I've found that if the cells are capped, the hive has already swarmed.  If they are not capped, you might stop a swarm, or you might not.  If you don't, you have a queenless hive.  The swarm instinct is a powerful urge.  It's a lot better to prevent the hive from getting to that point.  If they do get to that point, it's better (IMO) to let them do what they do. 

Have you ever removed the queen cells and then ended up with a queenless hive?

[joebrown]

I am not going to remove queen cells from a hive that does not have a laying queen. If the hive has no queen I would not take many of the queen cells. For example, I had a hive this spring that was full of bees. They had not swarmed. There were probably 15 to 20 queen cells. I left a frame with 6 queen cells in the hive. I removed 2 other frames with 5 or 6 queen cells a piece on them. I used each frame to make a split. The hive did not swarm and I got two splits. Another example would be this post http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,33823.msg278608.html#msg278608

I had two queens and capped queen cells in my hive. The hive was full of eggs, larva, and capped brood. Why would I leave the queens and queen cells? The queens duel and the cells are destroyed in this scenario. I knew the original queen was gone/superceded. I took the cells and extra queen and made splits.

Going back to the original post, I believe Leechmann should have absolutely left the queen cells in the hive because there was no laying queen present as well as no eggs or larva to create one. However, there are cases where queen cells can be removed and used instead of left and wasted.

[FRAMEshift]

I have stopped several hives from swarming by removing a few frames with queen cells

Ah, I misunderstood you.  I thought you were saying that removing the queen cells stopped the swarm.  But you were doing splits so you removed lots of bees and resources too.  Actually, in such a case, I would remove the laying queen into one of the splits and leave some queen cells behind.  That will definitely stop a swarm.

[joebrown]

Normally take the queen when I am doing a split from scratch so to speak. So the queenless hive is left with the workforce. It is only fair. One hive should not get the queen and the workforce.  :-D Can you tell they are like kids to me!

[leechmann]

Thanks for the info guys. I understand the points you are making. I guess one of the most difficult things to do in bee keeping is to be able to keep your hive flourishing, but not to the point to where the bees think they need to swarm. It seems to be a fine line, and as a bee keeper you have to be able to read the signs the bees are giving you, and act on them before the bees do. So, that being said, besides the brood  chamber being honey bound, what are other signs we as bee keepers can pickup on, to prevent swarming? I mean as guy caan only make so may splits.

thanks Leechmann

[Brian D. Bray]

I'm sure that any beekeeper who has been doing it for more than 5 years and inspects his hives on a regular basis has found themselves in a situation similar to what I'm going to discribe.

When I was still in high school (1964 or 5) I was inspecting the hives I had in my back yard.  I opened up one hive and heard a chorus of piping.  But the only queen I could see was the queen that has been in the hive since the previous summer.  I pulled one brood frame and found 3 worker bees laying wax to the cap of a queen cell, the queen inside was piping away.  The bees were actually keeping her captive.  I set that frame aside, in a nearby bait hive, to do a split with, and continued my inspection.  I found another frame, this time with 2 queens being kept captive with the workers busily recapping the cell as fast as the queen inside could chew her way out. 
More splits.
On the 3rd frame I pulled there was only one queen being held captive, but this time with only one worker.  As I brought the queen cell up to eye level, the worker quit trying to hold her captive and I suddenly had a virgin queen emerge before my eyes. 
It was like an explosion, as the queen fell off the frame, the hive began to swarm, busting out the top of the hive like a tornado. 
It was an awesome experience.
I've had the same thing happen a few other times over the years. 

From the position of the queen cells, the fact that the old queen was still fat and laying, indicated that a supercedure was taking place and the worker bees were keeping the hatching queens confined until they determined which one they wanted before offing the old lady.

The hive  swarmed because the queen became airborne.

Just a story I thought you might like to hear about supercedure cells and virgin queens.

[joebrown]

Cool story. I have not experienced that yet. Maybe one day!

[Michael Bush]

My point is the colony decided they needed a new queen.  I would let them have one.