African bees with an Italian queen

[GeorgeAdams]

I am a prospector beekeeper living in Nicaragua.  I have a small coffee farm where there are more than 100,000 coffee trees within a 2 mile radius.  Each coffee tree has far more than 500 blossoms during its 5 to 6 week term.  But, the biggest honey draw throughout the year is other trees and shrubs like mango trees, lemon and lime trees. Etc.

I suspect that 99% of colonies here are African.  They believe African is best because (1) they have no disease problems + (2) they believe the African aggressiveness means more honey {average more than 100# per year... many claim 200# - year}.

I have been counseled by a Nicaragua bee union that African bees need to be 300 yards away from any house or road.   Those distances will not work on my coffee farm.   I have seen what I believe is the solution... a friend breed African bees with Italian queens which produce docile hives and he maintains hives with no disease problems (the Italian queens were transported to Nicaragua in a shirt pocket from the US).  This years production was a bad year but was a little more than 100# / hive

So, I am ready to start out with a cross of African / Italian bees.  Comments.

And, do any of you know anything about honey from coffee trees? 

[AllenF]

First, bees will fly a couple of miles, so they will hit your coffee and anything else blooming around.   I would listen to the bee union.   

[GeorgeAdams]

I can not listen to the bee union and keep the bees on my property.

[GeorgeAdams]

Alan F... it almost sounds like you think aving pure African bees is better than a cross between African and Italian

[AllenF]

No, i am not saying that.   You can cross them.   Do others in the union have Italian queens?   

[GeorgeAdams]

Alan F - no one has access to Italian bees other than my friend who has a son-in-law working as a beekeeper in South Dakota.  According to the bee union, I can not have pure African bees on my property because I do not have 2,000 feet to put the bees between the road and my house.  I have more than 5,000 coffee trees on my property.  I don't see a problem with the combination - do you? 

[Rock331]

I would try the cross. It sounds like a win win situation. You can have your bees and may start a trend with the other farmers who have the same problem. Do good documentation for the other to see. I do believe under the right place and situation there is nothing wrong with African bees. Not saying they belong anywhere there is  people but they do live in the wild in parts of the world and the people are living with them. Its called respect. I think an aggressive re-queening policy will help in taming the bees.   Good luck with your adventure.

[AllenF]

Are importing queens from the U.S. legal?   If so, then do it.  But does the bee union classify all bees as African or do they still have Italian hive classification?   But keeping a hive as tame Italians will be a chore as all the drones in the are AHB. 

[Dan Leonard]

Ok, I'll preface this with I know nothing from nothing.

That said, the Africanized Honeybee is widely regarded (at least in the USA) as a nasty bee.  I do not believe that they have a particularly larger yield than any other type of honeybee, while enjoying a much nastier personality.  And like Great Grandfather Fred's nose, which is large and unattractive, we can not seem to breed it out of our family.  Similarly the nastines of the African Honeybee dominates what ever species with which it is bred.

I will cheerfully stand down for those who know more.

[GeorgeAdams]

I know of one small beekeeper (40 hives in one place and I don't know how many in one other place) who has cross bread some years ago.  His son-in-law brought 2 Italian queens to him in his shirt pocket and his bees seem docile.  As far as being legal... well we are in Nicaragua which is the safest country in Central America BUT...

[iddee]

Personally, I don't think you have any pure blooded African bees. I think they have all crossed with Italians over the last 60 years. Some to more of a degree than others, but all somewhat. That is why they are called Africanized rather than African. You just need to see how much Italian you can breed into them.

[GeorgeAdams]

Well, Iddee...

You may be correct... BUT this is NICARAGUA, and the beekeeps I have talked to (except one) would not think of crossing anything with their African bees.

[rbinhood]

Just my humble oppion....I have 5 hives of German/mutt crosses and a couple  of these that I do not think any Africanized be can hold a candle too when it comes to being aggressive.  These little spawn of the devil will cover you up when you act like you are about to walk toward one of their hives.  On one of our 98 degree days last week I pulled the supers off of these hives and on one hive I had so many bees on my veil I could barely see.  These little devils can sting through leather gloves like they were made of Charmin tissue paper.  The bad thing is when one stings 4 dozen more follow, it is like pouring gasoline on a fire.  They have their good point though.....nobody wants them and very few animals mess with them......especially the 5 old jackasses that are in the pasture where the bees are located.

[VolunteerK9]

I don't see a problem with the combination - do you? 

You could spend the money on the queens if want to, but I think you would be fighting a losing battle. I would dare say that the area is saturated with African drones making it nearly impossible to keep a true Italian hive. Maybe if you requeened 1 or twice a year. I would also think that the African genes would be dominant in the cross anyways. Just my opinion though-based on nothing scientific.

[Judy in in]

I love you method of transportation.

Now, if I could only bring Oscellated turkey eggs through in the other direction.

[Michael Bush]

I don't think crossing them with Italians will calm them.  That experiment was tried by both the USDA back in the 40s and by Kerr in Brazil with no success.  It may make them worse.  Something that blocks their flight path (a hedge, a fence, a stack of straw bales etc.) and makes them fly up above people's heads may help keep them from running into people and keep the guard bees from seeing people.  I've had really hot bees and 100 yards a was not far enough away to not get stung.

[CapnChkn]

From Wikipedia.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africanized_bee

Gentle African bees

Not all African hives show overly defensive behavior; some colonies are quiet, which gives a beginning point for beekeepers to breed a gentler stock.[13] This has been done in Brazil, where bee incidents are much less common than they were during the first wave of the African bees' colonization. Now that the African bee has been "re-domesticated," it is considered the bee of choice for beekeeping in Brazil.

The reference cited in this snippet:
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/africanized-honey-bees/preparing-for-the-africanized-honey-bee-a-program-for-arizona/

[bee-nuts]

Gdams

First of all dont get huffy at me, Im just trying to help ok.  Like Iddee says, AHB is Africanized Honeybee.  A cross between your local AHB and an imported Italian still gets you AHB.  Now if you cant legally keep AHB within 300 yards of your home, a road, or property line, then why not order some marked Italians from the USA and just keep good old fashioned Italians.  You will actually be able to work the things without wearing riot gear.  If you ever find an unmarked queen, pinch it and order another one a.s.a.p.  Whats so bad about Italians?  Maybe you will get 100-200 lbs anyways.  You can keep it a little secret with locals and they will think you are nuts when they see you work the bees in a veil, t-shirt and no gloves.

[Finski]

.
European bees were imported in Brasil 195? because European bees succeeded not live in jungle weather. Too hot, moist or something. European bees are kept higher on mountais where the conditions are more favorable to European bee.

During European be time bees did not concured the jugle but when African bee arrived, it was mere history after that.

There are stingless local bees too in South America and Middle America. They have highly valued honey.


Brasil Beekeeping University would be a right place to ask.

.

[GeorgeAdams]

Thanks beekeeps for your responses.  I must have respect for your comments as each of you know more than me.

Volunteer9 – you stated

"You could spend the money on the queens if want to, but I think you would be fighting a losing battle. I would dare say that the area is saturated with African drones making it nearly impossible to keep a true Italian hive."

I agree and do not want a pure Italian hive – I just want docile bees.

Michael Bush – you stated

"I don't think crossing them with Italians will calm them..." and then gave the reason why.  Then you stated "I've had really hot bees and 100 yards was not far enough away to not get stung."

All I know is that I walked among an apiary of African / Italian bees and was ignored.  I would not think of doing this one mile away with my friend's apiary of pure AHB.

CapnChkn –

you referenced Wikipedia and spoke of Gentle African bees mentioning that AHB it is considered the bee of choice for beekeeping in Brazil.

The AHB is also the bee of choice in Nicaragua BUT the pure AHB apiary is far from gentle!!!!

Bee-Nuts –

AHB is Africanized Honeybee.  A cross between your local AHB and an imported Italian still gets you AHB.  Now if you can't legally keep AHB within 300 yards of your home, a road, or property line,

I can legally keep bees anywhere on my own property BUT it just isn't safe with pure AHB.

then why not order some marked Italians from the USA and just keep good old fashioned Italians..."   

Bee Nuts, you are OK... you make me smile.   Regarding bringing in packages... this is Nicaragua!  DHL might be willing to take packages aboard for approximate $100 shipping a package but I suspect that customs would take at least 2 weeks. 

Thanks all for your comments