Swarm in September?? in Wisconsin?

T Beek · September 06, 2011, 07:34:35 AM

A friend called yesterday telling me he had a swarm (?) behind his house about 20 minutes from my place, so I headed over as I needed some supplies out his way anyway, but didn't really have much hope for these bees.

We're assuming they're left overs from the cranberry pollination that took place earlier as there's no known beeks in the area and he's got cranberries all around. Anyhow, this was the easiest swarm I've ever captured. It was 20" above the ground on a bent over goldenrod stem. I just placed my swarm box under, broke off the stem into the box and covered them up. Not including drive time it took about 15 seconds 8-).

QUESTION; What chances do these bees have? They're the size of a soccer ball. I'm thinking that I'll put them in a 8 frame medium box and feed like crazy and hope for the best. We've got just a few weeks before weather turns cold for real around here so I am concerned about their survival. My other three colonies are full of bees, but I suppose I have time to just add this swarm to one of them, but I feel its a gift this late in the year and maybe I should try to over winter them.

Any advise appreciated.

thomas

BjornBee · September 06, 2011, 07:46:30 AM

The number one trigger for bees to swarm is the urge to reproduce in times of plenty. While the beekeeper thinks he can control the swarming through hive manipulations, and some just outright claim that keeping bees in certain hives will all but stop it, lowering or suppressing the urge is about as good as it gets.

All insects, birds, and animals, adjust their offspring numbers (bigger litters, and additional litters) based on times of plenty, drought, etc. You either have a good fall flow going , or these were from a migratory hive that probably has natural timing way off schedule.

I just wrote a small mention of fall swarming here:
http://www.pennapic.org/seasonaladvice.html

I would combine the swarm into another weak hive. While you occasionally hear of someone getting a late season swarm through winter, it probably is about a 5% chance at best. Not worth the time of feeding, labor, etc.

T Beek · September 06, 2011, 07:56:43 AM

C'mon Bjorn, I don't have any 'weak' hives and its not a swarm from my yard. Does anyone have any other ideas? We are in the midst of our last flow of the season. If its certain that they are doomed I won't try, but if there's a chance I'd like to (I may even try keeping them warm w/ artificial heat ;)

thomas

BjornBee · September 06, 2011, 08:30:50 AM

Quote from: T Beek on September 06, 2011, 07:56:43 AM
C'mon Bjorn, I don't have any 'weak' hives and its not a swarm from my yard. Does anyone have any other ideas? We are in the midst of our last flow of the season. If its certain that they are doomed I won't try, but if there's a chance I'd like to (I may even try keeping them warm w/ artificial heat ;)

thomas

What the big "C'mon Bjorn" all about?

I gave you some good info. I wasn't pointing fingers, and certainly did not expect this form of comeback. I don't write many times targeting an individual (so quit being so vain) and more write from the point that many beekeepers will read this and perhaps my information will help someone.

So "C'mon thomas"...go back to bed, get up, and try again. Perhaps with a positive attitude and some appreciation for someone willing to even take the time to help you. ;)

T Beek · September 06, 2011, 08:35:21 AM

I give up :'(

thomas

BjornBee · September 06, 2011, 08:57:03 AM

Let me help you out. :-D

I said "I would combine...." and I think you thought I said "You should combine.....".

I was just suggesting what I would do. Isn't that what you are seeking. What others would do? Isn't this the basis for a forum. To pass along each individuals experiences and suggestions? Each persons suggestions may or may not be relevant. But it is nice to get all the inputs, then decide for yourself. Not bash each individual post as you decide whether they apply or not. Somehow I think you took it personal and thought I was suggesting you had weak hives. Not correct.

So "C'mon!", pick yourself up....and don't be a quitter. :-D

Seeing as this swarm is NOT raising brood at this time, and even if you get them established, they will raise a small amount of brood at this point, I give them little chance. You could add a few frames of brood. But then you risk weakening other hives.

Whatever you try....give it 110%! So you have a chance of coming back in the spring and making me eat my words. That should be motivation for you. Just be prepared to tell me how many hours of labor it took, how many bags of sugar, and what the colony looks like come spring.

I know I gave up after many years of trying to save late season swarms. It just took money and time away from my family. And I sleep better at night not thinking about small clusters in December and January.

FRAMEshift · September 06, 2011, 09:21:17 AM

Quote from: T Beek on September 06, 2011, 07:34:35 AM
My other three colonies are full of bees,

So that's the answer. You have plenty of bees so just add more bees to the swarm hive. And as you say, feed like crazy. If time is too short, this might be an opportunity to use Finski's feeding method. Just pour concentrated syrup (I use 3:2) into drawn comb and stick the frames in the hive. Instant stores! :-D

stella · September 06, 2011, 11:43:29 AM

I say go for it T Beek!!
You know you wanna :-D

windfall · September 06, 2011, 12:20:46 PM

If your looking for options what about passing the good fortune along? You say your hives are packed. Perhaps you know someone in the area who has had a rougher year than you and has a hive that could really use the boost?

I try to help those around me when times are good. And I gratefully accept a hand when things are not. It's a nicer place when we all keep the wheel spinning.

BlueBee · September 06, 2011, 02:16:00 PM

Thomas, I recall from last winter some bee keepers in your area winter indoors, in a basement like setting. I know some of my odd ways of keeping bees is not everyone's cup of tea, but there's always something new the bees can teach us when we experiment with them. If you look at the old bee books, there is a ton of advice about wintering indoors if you wanted to experiment in that fashion (see CC Millers book).

In the old days, they wintered them indoors, in complete darkness, at about 50F (I believe) for the winter. Another twist of that approach would be to set up nucs in a basement but give them access tubes to the outdoors. I recall seeing some posts last winter about people trying that. I used electric heat on my small nucs outside last year, but if you have the space in the basement, and a relatively cool basement/garage, that setup might be easier to implement in a short period of time.

Bjorn's advice is better advice, but I just thought I would pipe in if you wanted to try something experimental.

AliciaH · September 06, 2011, 02:50:26 PM

I like the idea of supplementing bees from your other hives. A soccer ball is a pretty good size, they should be able to cover a frame of capped brood from another hive. The worker population will increase faster that way. If your fall flow doesn't last past the three weeks to raise them, then they will be there to store the syrup you provide. Do you think your weather window would give you enough time to try something like that?

sterling · September 06, 2011, 04:54:29 PM

Are your other hives strong enough to take a couple frames of brood and or honey and make a six frame nuc and let them build alittle before bad weather sets in?

tefer2 · September 06, 2011, 06:38:51 PM

I've had them make it when caught in August but think Sept. is to late. I would place in a 2 story nuc or add brood and stores from your other hives. Stealing from the strong to give to the weak, doesn't always work out and you end up with two dead outs.

buzzbee · September 06, 2011, 10:27:26 PM

Nobody asked,but was a queen amongst this"swarm". Or was it a bunch of stragglers left from the cranberries just congregated. If there is not a queen,the only alternative is to give the workers to another hive.If you have an unmated queen,prospects are not much better.

tandemrx · September 07, 2011, 01:03:43 AM

Do you have a mostly full super that you haven't extracted that you could put on top of this swarm in a deep with some drawn frames? I bet they might make it.

I had a few weak colonies going into winter last year that I never thought would make it (one was a swarm I caught in late July that swarmed on September 1st last fall - I didn't catch the swarm, but figured the original hive they swarmed from would never make it - but they overwintered well with a small population . . . . I left them a super of honey to help them out . . . and they were one of my better hives this year.

tandemrx · September 07, 2011, 01:47:09 AM

PS - speaking of September swarm in WI . . . my wife and I were out at one of our bee yards on Aug 27th (a week prior to this past Saturday) to remove our supers for harvest.

We had spent about 2 hours at the hives doing chores and removing supers. We had a makeshift tabe set up about 10-15 yards away from the hives to put supers on after they had been removed from hives with fume boards - we use the table to further brush off any left over bees and transfer frames to empty boxes.

We were just putting the final things away in the truck when we heard unmistakable buzz of a swarm of bees taking off.

We turn around and sure enough there is a very large swarm leaving from a tree not more than 10 feet from where we had our table operation set up - not even 8 feet in the air (same tree and spot I had caught a swarm about a month ago from). It was there the entire time we were removing supers and we never noticed it - so preoccupied we were with the operation at hand that somehow we didn't notice them. Walking to my truck, which I had done probably 10 times while we were there I had walked even closer to the swarm - my head probably no more than 5 feet away and I never saw it.

It was a heavily branched small tree with lots of leaves, but still rather hilarious that we never saw it.

Funnier yet, we were wondering why the Bee Quick had worked so well on this hive that had 4 supers on it - our best producing hive of the year - finishing off a solid 3.5 supers worth of capped frames. We would take off the super and there would barely be a but a couple straggler bees left over in the entire super. Usually, even with Bee Quick there will be pockets of bees here or there that decide not to leave. But these supers from this one hive were practically empty of bees - even though on a couple other hives the Bee Quick wasn't working nearly as well.

Now we know why - they had left in great numbers probably just before we got there (or maybe the day before - who knows).

I followed the swarm a ways and hoped that they might go to a swarm trap I have about 1/4 mile away, but they headed in different direction over some trees where I could not follow.

Funny, but at the time I was shocked that we could be so close and have no clue. And of course sad to lose such a big swarm so late in the season. Goldenrod is just coming in strong now, but I can't imagine the swarm will make it - even if I had caught them in my trap I would have been worried they wouldn't stand much of a chance.

Hope you have some nice drawn out frames to give your new swarm and maybe a partial super of honey - they just won't make a lot of wax this time of year in my experience.

bee-nuts · September 07, 2011, 03:05:08 AM

T-Beek, I wintered a few colonies in deeps last year and they did ok. I think if you take a frame of emerging brood from each colony you have, and a frame of honey and a frame of pollen from each, and feed these girls they should be able to get two or three brood cycles out before winter hits. They could easily make it. if you have a hive top feeder, that hold four gallons, fill that three times and they should be set, LOL. Worst case scenario, they freeze out and you have lots of frames of honey for splits come spring. Give it a shot. You can put them on top of another colony to soak up its heat too come winter.

msully · September 07, 2011, 04:38:26 PM

I like your idea of feeding the heck out of them. They should draw out a couple of frames of foundation. If they don't make it then you have more frames of drawn comb. Some of the others suggested pulling frames of honey and brood from your other hives, which I think is an excellent idea. They are your bees and if you want to give it a shot, then what-the-heck. I like a good challenge too....

Mike