newspaper combine: does it matter which colony (top/bottom) has queen?

windfall · September 10, 2011, 02:30:07 PM

Most of what I read on newspaper combines seems to say make a colony A queenless for 24hrs then move it on top of queenright colony B.

I am wondering if it works just as well to make the bottom box (B) queenless for 24 hrs and then put the queen right (A) colony on top of them?

I want the combined colony at the location of B, But may decide to keep queen A after today's inspection. It has been a toss up so far, and I may just squash the first queen I find. But colony A has been a little less aggressive over the season. It has also been weaker due to some challenges early on but now seems to be rallying nicely.

The important question is does it matter which box(top or bottom) has the queen while combining?

Separately, If both queens continue to elude me. How much risk do I run in just combining them and letting the queens fight it out? Doe this commonly result in an injured winner?

Jim134 · September 10, 2011, 04:13:56 PM

Quote from: windfall on September 10, 2011, 02:30:07 PM

The important question is does it matter which box(top or bottom) has the queen while combining?

IMHO I put the Queen I like to keep on top and letting the queens fight it out.

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

boca · September 10, 2011, 05:04:14 PM

Uniting two colonies is an operation which increase the probability of loosing the queen (e.g. killed). I think the last thing you want this time of the year is ending up with a queenless colony. If both colonies are queenright, the probability of queen loss is higher in my opinion. Therefore I do not recommend to let them to fight out. I suggest to save the queen you like less in a baby nuc or even a queen cage with attendants. After 24 hours unite the hives. After a while check if everything is all right. Then you don't need the backup queen. This insurance cost you nothing.

Quote from: windfall on September 10, 2011, 02:30:07 PM
But colony A has been a little less aggressive over the season. It has also been weaker ...

There is a cause/result relationship between colony size and protection of their nest. (I don't like to use the terms "aggressive" and "weak")

windfall · September 10, 2011, 05:22:57 PM

well, I saw them both today and put the queen from colony A in alcohol. It was still a toss up to me. Keeping in her reserve makes lots of sense. I just didn't want to bother, and I have a 1 or 2 more small hives I may yet divide out or combine so if the combine fails I do still have options.

It was the first queen I have handled or dispatched. And although I know they are just bugs it seems wasteful somehow....I think I will get over it ;)

Michael Bush · September 10, 2011, 08:36:35 PM

It doesn't matter. If you prefer one queen over the other remove that one. If you have no preference let them sort it out. It makes no difference which one is on top.

FRAMEshift · September 10, 2011, 11:14:58 PM

Quote from: Michael Bush on September 10, 2011, 08:36:35 PM
If you have no preference let them sort it out.

Are you saying that if the queens are equal, you would let the hives fight it out and kill one of the queens? Doesn't that risk losing both queens? I didn't expect you to say that. :-D

annette · September 10, 2011, 11:22:58 PM

Reading and learning. Waiting for this answer as well.

Michael Bush · September 10, 2011, 11:34:28 PM

>Are you saying that if the queens are equal, you would let the hives fight it out and kill one of the queens? Doesn't that risk losing both queens? I didn't expect you to say that.

I'm lazy and I've almost never seen them end up queenless from a combine. Besides I think the bees are a better judge of the better queen than me, most of the time. But if you have a preference, I would get rid of the other queen.

windfall · September 11, 2011, 09:02:13 AM

Thanks for the input. I like simple, and I like the idea of trusting the bees to sort it out. But will they choose the "better" queen or will it just be a matter of the stronger hive dominating?

I know I read somewhere this year that when the queens do fight it is not a knock down brawl, but more of a "dance" to see who can get in position for a fatal sting...and thus you rarely have an injured winner. Having never observed the process I can't comment.

It does seem most folks fear that putting them both in is likely to have a winner with some damage.

So how exactly do the queens "fight it out"? Or is the risk that the each hive will ball the other's queen at the same time or before they realize one is already gone and they have become queenless?

Michael Bush · September 11, 2011, 10:05:17 AM

>Thanks for the input. I like simple, and I like the idea of trusting the bees to sort it out. But will they choose the "better" queen or will it just be a matter of the stronger hive dominating?

It could either end in a fight or the bees may choose the one with more QMP which indicates she is more fertile.

>I know I read somewhere this year that when the queens do fight it is not a knock down brawl, but more of a "dance" to see who can get in position for a fatal sting...and thus you rarely have an injured winner. Having never observed the process I can't comment.

Huber documented it in great detail and your descriptions is pretty accurate.

>So how exactly do the queens "fight it out"?

http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#letter6

"In one of our thinned hives, two queens left their cells almost at the same moment. Whenever they observed each other, they rushed together, apparently with great fury, and were in such a position that the antennae of each was seized by the teeth of the other; the head, breast, and belly of the one were exposed to the head, breast, and belly of the other: the extremity of their bodies were curved; they were reciprocally pierced with the stings; and both fell dead at the same instant. But it seems as if nature has not ordained that both combatants should perish in the duel; but rather that, when finding themselves in the situation described, namely, opposite, and belly to belly, they fly at that moment with the utmost precipitation. Thus, when these two rivals felt the extremities about to meet, they disengaged themselves, and each fled away. You will observe, Sir, that I have repeated this observation very often, so that it leaves no room for doubt: and I think that we may here penetrate the intention of nature.

"There ought to be none but one queen in a hive: therefore it is necessary, if by chance a second is either produced or comes into the hive, that one of the two must be destroyed. This cannot be committed to the working bees, because, in a republic composed of so many individuals, an equal consent cannot be supposed always to exist; it might frequently happen that one group of bees destroyed one of the queens, while a second would massacre the other; and the hive thus be deprived of queens. Therefore it was necessary that the queens themselves should be entrusted with the destruction of their rivals: but as, in these combats, nature demands but a single victim, she has wisely arranged that, at the moment when, from their position, the two combatants might lose their lives, both feel so great an alarm, that they think only of flight, and not of using their stings.

"I am well aware of the hazard of error in minute researches into the causes of the most trifling facts. But here the object and the means seem so plain, that I have ventured to advance my conjectures. You will judge better than I can, whether they are well founded.-- Let me now return from this digression.

"A few minutes after the two queens separated, their terror ceased, and they again began to seek each other. Immediately on coming in sight, they rushed together, seized one another, and resumed exactly their former position. The result of this reencounter was the same. When their bellies approached, they hastily disengaged themselves, and fled with precipitation. During all this time, the workers seemed in great agitation; and the tumult appeared to increase when the adversaries separated. Two different times, we observed them stop the flight of the queens, seize their limbs, and retain them prisoners above a minute. At last, the queen, which was either the strongest or the most enraged, darted on her rival at a moment when unperceived, and with her teeth caught the origin of the wing; then rising above her, brought the extremity of her own body under the belly of the other; and, by this means, easily pierced her with the sting. Then she withdrew her sting after losing hold of the wing. The vanquished queen fell down, dragged herself languidly along, and, her strength failing, she soon expired. "--François Huber, New Observations on the Natural History Of Bees , 28 August 1791

>Or is the risk that the each hive will ball the other's queen at the same time or before they realize one is already gone and they have become queenless

Without the newspaper this is a risk.

windfall · September 11, 2011, 10:16:50 AM

Thanks for the reference and excerpt.

FRAMEshift · September 11, 2011, 05:33:07 PM

Quote from: Michael Bush on September 10, 2011, 11:34:28 PM
I'm lazy and I've almost never seen them end up queenless from a combine.

So combining two queenright hives is different from combining a laying worker hive into a queenright hive? I know that you advise against that.

Michael Bush · September 11, 2011, 10:39:26 PM

>So combining two queenright hives is different from combining a laying worker hive into a queenright hive? I know that you advise against that.

Very different. What if a laying worker wins?

http://bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm