How often is too often?

Steel Tiger · June 11, 2013, 12:13:40 PM

If you have a rapid building hive the is getting to be known for building "crazy comb", how often is too often to go into the hive to fix it?
Right now I'm blaming the width of the comb guide. Both hives have a single deep. I got them as nucs, so they had 5 full frames. The empty frames I used were wedge type which I pulled the cleat, turned it and glued back in. that gave them a guide of just under 1/4 inch. Out of the 10 frames between the two hives, all 100 were build perfectly.
Added mediums who's frames are the grove type. I glued in popsicle sticks which gave them a guide of 2/3 inch. Out of the 10 frames in one hive, they build double comb on 4 frames. They start building comb on each side of the guide and don't connect it. I went through and either squeezes them together, or broke them trying. The other 6 frames, they started the comb on the edge of the guide and they come out great.
I added a second medium to that hive and pulled several of the frames up. Maybe they built double comb because that medium had a bunch of empty frames.
I'm ordering some medium wedge type frames to add to the next box and see how many are build "crazy".
Over all, compared to what I've seen other people go through, I'm quite pleased with the hive. The bees are less defensive than they were a month ago. I still won't go in without suiting up. Now I'm get buzzed by 1 or 2 angry bees instead of a dozen or so. The other hive is super gentle but not building up. I know the queen is laying, there is capped brood in newly build comb. The pattern isn't as solid as I would like to see. I'll be going back in and checking in a few days and get some pictures.

Michael Bush · June 11, 2013, 01:44:11 PM

It really helps to keep feeding empty frames between drawn brood comb. If you keep them busy drawing comb where they can't get it wrong, you get a lot of good comb...

Steel Tiger · June 11, 2013, 02:32:07 PM

Quote from: Michael Bush on June 11, 2013, 01:44:11 PM
It really helps to keep feeding empty frames between drawn brood comb. If you keep them busy drawing comb where they can't get it wrong, you get a lot of good comb...

Unfortunately, I didn't have much of an option. New mediums with new frames. What I was able to do is pull a broken frame from one of the deeps, cut the comb out and then cut it in half. I supported each piece in medium frames with rubber bands and placed them into the number two slot hoping the comb build between that frame and the wall will be straight. The weaker of the two hives repaired that comb quickly, attaching it to the bottom, sides and the top of the frame. That's also the hive that the comb originally came from. So far, that's all they did. No new comb started on either side, or any other frame in that medium.
The other hive attached the comb to the sides and bottom but also built on the other frames. As they built out, I would move an empty frame between a frame they just started and one they've been working on.
My original question is, "how often is too often to go into the hives?" I have my reason for wanting to go in. I know this hive builds fast. Is once a day too much (weather permitting)? Or should I give them a few days between visits, which by that time, I have to manipulate the comb which sometimes Leaves me with a chunk of broken comb.

Psparr · June 11, 2013, 03:08:55 PM

I'm really new to beekeeping but I have not noticed any disruption when going into the hive. I don't smoke much, usually smoke myself more than the hive itself. Even pulling frames they seem to keep about their business. And I don't get a frenzy outside the hive during or after. Again I'm new but those are my observations.

BrentX · June 11, 2013, 10:15:40 PM

Go in with a plan. Make the comb adjustments as needed. Drop fresh frames in as Michael mentioned.

Better.to.Bee.than.not · June 11, 2013, 11:17:31 PM

Unfortunately the only real answer is "It is to often to go in, when it creates a disruption in the hive."...and the reason it is unfortunate is because the bees are the ones who decide that really, and there isn't like a rule of thumb to it even, I do not think. the goode news is I've hung out with beeks who simply do not care what or how the bees do their own brood....They are completely hands off, as well as a part they set aside for the bees honey. I've seen successful hives that have crossed sticks for frames. so it all depends which way you wanna go with it I guess.

JackM · June 12, 2013, 09:15:10 AM

All I know is that from my research don't mess with them any more than necessary during the dearth, only enough to monitor what is going on during the flow.

Obviously we cannot always do so.

Now as we discussed elsewhere, the little girls will make perfect brood comb every time, but not so much with the storage comb. So ask yourself this....do you really need to look closely at every frame? After you get some miles you will be able to lift a super and tell if it is close to full or not.....and this disturbs the bees less. Messing with fixing comb makes a big mess of honey in the hive and it still gets all bonky-wonky. So, observing this, I have quit worrying about the appearance of the comb in the supers. Makes no difference on the honey. If you were selling comb honey you may have different thoughts, but other than that, it really makes no difference.

When you inspect you should be just checking for eggs, larvae,and stray bugs, that takes only moments and does not disturb the hive too much, mostly when you are in the brood. Added benefit is that the bees are more chill the less you bug them.

beehappy1950 · June 12, 2013, 09:45:33 AM

Steel tiger, I am just curious. Why would anybody want to go foundationless and have all the problems you seem to have. I really feel sorry for your bees, you have to be killing lots of them while tying all that comb up. If you get some foundation and put in there then when it gets capped then just slip another foundationless frame in between it. It will be as perfect as a frame with foundation.

Steel Tiger · June 12, 2013, 01:03:49 PM

Quote from: beehappy1950 on June 12, 2013, 09:45:33 AM
Steel tiger, I am just curious. Why would anybody want to go foundationless and have all the problems you seem to have. I really feel sorry for your bees, you have to be killing lots of them while tying all that comb up. If you get some foundation and put in there then when it gets capped then just slip another foundationless frame in between it. It will be as perfect as a frame with foundation.

I've had no problems with the brood frames. The queen hasn't started laying in the medium yet. So far that's been all honey and nectar. I just added the second medium and pulled frames up from the first. Hopefully the queen will feel the need to start laying in the first as they build new comb in the empty frames I put in. As far as problems, I've seen people having much, much worse than I'm experiencing. Those are also people that'll leave their hives alone for weeks at a time while the bees are building the comb, so they don't catch it before it becomes a huge mess. Right now I go in for a quick check every 6-12 days depending on the weather. Every other time I go in, I also check the deep for any problems.
Foundation doesn't guarantee perfect comb anymore than foundationless guarantee wachy comb. Right now my observation suggest that a wide comb guild causes messed up comb if the bees decide to start building on each side of the frame instead of starting on the guide itself. Perhaps if they had built comb on each side of the empty frame, they wouldn't have started building the comb along the side of the guide. As they build out more frames and I'm able to use them as a guide as well, my views on wide guides may change.

Finski · June 12, 2013, 06:30:34 PM

.
Sounds very complicated.

When some one starts beekeeping, foundation is a good start. I cannot understand what idea is with natural combs.

If you put every too drawn comb and then a gap, or fioundation, the bees draw ready combs too long. New foundation should be in same group.

To draw fast or slow, that has no meaning in beekeeping. They do them however when they need new combs.

However, the queen can lay as much as nurser bees can maintaind brood. Then queen must pusch brakes.

..

.

Leather Jim · June 12, 2013, 06:44:48 PM

Hello, this is my first post and I'm definitely a rookie. I've decided to run all top bar hives and get most of my info via the Internet. Located near Cleveland, Ohio and Topbar is not very popular here. Lol. I have one hive from last year that I made a great many mistakes with, cross comb being the biggest. Built 5 new hives and have packages installed in 4 and have a cutout to do this weekend to start the 5th. Michael Bush has been a great source of good common sense info. Les Crowder's book also. All the new hives are doing great on straight comb, I went to a straight cut guide rather than triangular, seem to work much better. Well anyway Hello everyone.

Nature Coast Beek · June 13, 2013, 07:32:36 AM

When it comes to foundation-less, in my experience, keeping it TIGHT is key. Keep the hive 1.) level all-around and 2.) keep those foundation-less start frames tight in between already drawn frames.

beek1951 · June 13, 2013, 03:37:50 PM

I did the same thing with the same results. I got a trailer load of used frames (3000)
and since they were wedge-top, thought I could use them for foundationless. I turned
the cleat just like you did and found that putting it back pointing down made it off-center.
Since it was not that much, I thought I would try it, but it got progressively worse until
the comb was very funky. Now I use popsicle sticks glued in the crack and coated with wax.