What's going on with this split?

Oblio13 · June 25, 2013, 02:45:42 PM

Twenty days ago, I put a capped queen cell in a nuc along with a couple frames of brood and a frame of honey. Today I took a peek hoping to see a new queen or at least eggs and larvae. There was no sign of a queen, but there was a new capped queen cell, and a lot fewer bees than I remember.

Would a nuc that small swarm in such a short time?

Vance G · June 25, 2013, 03:06:57 PM

An old research paper I read said that 1.5% of the bees in a colony die every day. So no bees emerging while a queen was waiting to mature means your population drops. You also probably had some of the split bees drifting back to original colony. If you haven't made any changes to things in 20 days, it sounds like your split raised a poor queen and she died shortly after starting laying or the bees are superceding her. I think you need to either give up on this one and return the geriactic bees to another colony or boost them with more frames of bees and brood. The cell you see was not raised in anything like good conditions and her quality is questionable. I don't think you have good odds of a colony forming that can make the winter.

Oblio13 · July 01, 2013, 09:57:52 AM

Thanks. I added another frame of brood to see what they do with it, I'll report back.

Michael Bush · July 01, 2013, 03:20:08 PM

Assuming you had a just capped queen cell I would expect to find eggs 21 days later at the earliest and 28 days later at the latest.

10framer · July 01, 2013, 07:58:21 PM

Quote from: Oblio13 on July 01, 2013, 09:57:52 AM
Thanks. I added another frame of brood to see what they do with it, I'll report back.

good chance you'll find the queen on that frame after a couple of days.

sc-bee · July 01, 2013, 08:22:11 PM

If they had a virgin queen or a queen waiting to lay would they have drawn another cell?

Michael Bush · July 02, 2013, 09:35:07 AM

>If they had a virgin queen or a queen waiting to lay would they have drawn another cell?

Probably not.

sc-bee · July 02, 2013, 12:07:49 PM

Quote from: Michael Bush on July 02, 2013, 09:35:07 AM
>If they had a virgin queen or a queen waiting to lay would they have drawn another cell?

Probably not.

Yep that is what I was thinking. New cell no queen.

Michael Bush · July 02, 2013, 12:39:40 PM

>New cell no queen.

That is a reasonable assumption.

Oblio13 · July 12, 2013, 04:34:04 PM

Update: I figured I should have a laying queen by now, so I took another look. There were a very few large larvae, and two queen cells with larvae. No sign of a queen or eggs.

Maybe I'm just not spotting them.

But it seems to me that this nuc is producing mated queens which then lay for only a couple days before swarming.

Is that likely? If so, what would be causing it?

sc-bee · July 13, 2013, 06:35:08 AM

What are the other conditions of the nuc? By your post I assume it is not growing. From what you have said no queen for at least
8wks. Can you post pictures? You say no eggs, do you have problems spotting eggs? Have you ever spotted eggs in a hive before? If you perhaps have vision problems, have you looked with a small LED light? You say no eggs so I guess no multiple eggs in cells. Just trying to explore the possibilities.

But............ most likely----You said July 1st:
>Thanks. I added another frame of brood to see what they do with it, I'll report back.

Are the new cells on a frame of brood you added July 1st? Are the queen cells capped. If so you are were queenless on July 1st and you are on less than day 13 (depending when the egg was laid in the cell) of the 28 day queen cycle again, from hatching to laying.

Oblio13 · July 14, 2013, 12:42:31 PM

Quote from: sc-bee on July 13, 2013, 06:35:08 AM
What are the other conditions of the nuc? By your post I assume it is not growing...

Correct, it is dwindling.

Quote from: sc-bee on July 13, 2013, 06:35:08 AMCan you post pictures? You say no eggs, do you have problems spotting eggs? Have you ever spotted eggs in a hive before? If you perhaps have vision problems, have you looked with a small LED light?...

I can't spot eggs through a veil, so I usually take pics which I can then examine at high-res at my leisure.

Quote from: sc-bee on July 13, 2013, 06:35:08 AMAre the new cells on a frame of brood you added July 1st?

Yes.

Quote from: sc-bee on July 13, 2013, 06:35:08 AMAre the queen cells capped. If so you are were queenless on July 1st and you are on less than day 13 (depending when the egg was laid in the cell) of the 28 day queen cycle again, from hatching to laying.

The nuc was started with a capped queen cell. Twenty days later, there was a new capped queen cell. At the last examination, there were two uncapped queen cells with larvae in them.

sc-bee · July 15, 2013, 12:05:10 AM

>Are the new cells on a frame of brood you added July 1st?
yes

Of course if they drew queen cells on the new brood frames you put in July 1 they were queenless. So you have to start back at zero once again on the queen math. Queen cell not capped <8-9 days old.