Newbee in need, package question... what do you think????

[Tito]

Hi there,

I want to start with two hives and am trying and start right. I'm struggling to make sense of all the choices and there seem to be many many of them.  What do you think of this start up packge.

http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=219

what is good/bad, add/subtract and so on.  What else will I need or would be good to have? I might do it pice by piece if that makes most sense but a good package helps simplify confusing topics for the new guy like cell size and wood or plastic frmes and the like.  

Thanks for all the help!

[Michael Bush]

It only simplifies things because they will sell you all sorts of things that I think are bad choices.

It is a typical beginners kit:

   * 2 Hive Bodies --I would buy all mediums.  These are deeps.  They will weigh 90 pounds full of honey.
   * 20 Pierco Frames, deep --I would buy small cell foundation (4.9mm)and wood frames
   * 2 Supers, medium--I would use THESE for the brood boxes.  In fact I'd buy 8 frame boxes from Brushy Mt.  These will weigh 60 pounds full of honey.  The 8 frame boxes will weigh 48 pounds.
   * 20 Pierco Frames, medium --These are better than large cell but they are still around 5.3mm where the Pierco foundation (as opposed to frames) is closer to 5.2mm
   * Bottom Board -- I would buy a screened bottom board, not a solid one.
   * Entrance Reducer--these are easy enough to make, but I'd probably do a top entrance and not use it.
   * BeeMax Polystryrene Telescope Cover-This isn't too bad of a cover.  Doesn't work so well for a top entrance, but works well otherwise.
   * Inner Cover --I do a top entrance with a migratory cover, so I don't use them.
   * Polystyrene Hive Top Feeder --I guess I don't like any feeders.  This may be one of the better ones, but it's still very difficult to lift it off when it's full.
   * Varroa Screen/Monitoring Tray --Does this go on the bottom board?  I want the ventilation.
   * Hard Plastic Helmet--I much prefer the "English" style hoods to anything that requires a helmet.
   * Round Tie-down Veil--I wear a jacket with a zip on veil. I never really wear a veil.
   * Stainless Steel Smoker with Heat Shield--I'd buy the larger smoker.  It's easer to light and easier to keep lit.
   * 10" Hive Tool--I don't use any of the standard ones anymore.  I use the Itlian hive tool from Brushy Mt.  Lighter.  More leverage.  And a hook to lift frames with.
   * Beginning Beekeeping Book--What's the book?
   * Ventilated Leather Gloves--I use regular leather gloves tucked into the elastic of my bee jacket with the zip on veil.  They are easier to get on and off.

Not much that I would buy.

[Angrybeerguy]

So You would have 3 mediums. Insteed of the 2 deeps for the hives bodies?

[Michael Bush]

I cut all of my deeps down to mediums (boxes and frames) and then I cut all my ten frame mediums down to eight frame mediums.  I now run all eight frame medums.  It would have been much easier to just buy the eight frame mediums.  :)

www.bushfarms.com (pictures of the process on my web site under "Converting to Easier to Work Hives")

Brushy Mt. has a wide assortment of accessories for eight frame hives.

Yes, I would (and do) run all mediums.  I don't like how my back feels after lifting even one 90 pound full deep.  I decides, while it was better, I also didn't like how it felt after all day of lifting 60 pound mediums.  So now I just lift 48 pound eight frame mediums.  My back is tired after a long day but doesn't hurt for the next week.

Yes, you'd make the brood chamber three ten frame mediums or four eight frame mediums here in the North with Italian bees.  I tend to play it by ear as far as wintering.  If it's a small cluster they might get two and a really big cluster might get four boxes.  But that's another nice thing about mediums, besides the interchanability of frames, you get more control over the room.  Also you get better communication in cluster in the winter because they an move from frame to frame better with a gap more often between the frames.

It may not be the norm yet, but many people are now using all mediums.

[Tito]

Michael,
Thanks for your input.
I think I'll be trying to get all mediums on your suggestion! What do you think about the Cypress supers from
http://www.gabees.com/catalog/
Can you help me with your opinion on frame and foundations?  I'm attracted to the ease of plastic but don't fully understand the pros and cons of all the variations.  As I literally have no expierence yet I'm not sold on anything.  I'd like to get what will be most healthy for the bees and most productive and enjoyable for the beek!  I know there is a lot of talk about 'small cell' and honestly while I got the concept I don't have all the backround or info to be truely informed.  Are all frames small cell or just some and can I get package bees and simply add them if I were to get teh small frame??  
Well I think you get the idea of my questions and can expand or contribute where you think fit as all information is most helpfull at this time before I buy equiptment.  
Again thanks very much for your time and attention!
Tito

[Robo]

Tito,

There is a whole discussion on the pros/cons of cypress here http://www.beemaster.com/beebbs/viewtopic.php?t=4412&highlight=cypress The short answer is most don't feel they are worth the extra money.


As far as foundation/frames,  try using the search feature of the forum, Micheal and others have discussed this many times before.

Are all frames small cell or just some and can I get package bees and simply add them if I were to get teh small frame??

The common/standard foundation is NOT small cell.  Small cell foundation (also called 4.9) is becoming more readily available.  Without getting into the debate of small cell (you can search on that too), the theory is that through the use of man made foundation, we have encouraged the bees to build bigger than natural cell size (building a bigger better? bee).  The small cell foundation is suppose to regress the bee size back to a more natural size.   You can not buy package bees and put them on small cell foundation, at least not adviseable for a beginner. They need to go through a couple of generations/regressions before they will draw 4.9 cleanly. You can find small breeders selling small cell packages though.

I think a lot of studying of small cell has shown that there is no one size cell that represents the natural size.  They build different size cells for different reasons.

Michael has been suggesting natural cell size (not neccessarily small cell (4.9)) by not giving the bees foundation, but let them build the comb the way they want to.  This can be done by giving frames with just a small starter strip of foundation or wax as a guide to where to start building.

[Michael Bush]

>I think I'll be trying to get all mediums on your suggestion!

I don't think you'll ever regret it.

> What do you think about the Cypress supers from
http://www.gabees.com/catalog/

I like cypress.  But pine lasts just fine.  I like cypress more for botom boards and lids and things that have to take more getting wet.  But I also like eight frame boxes.  The typical ones are pine, but I believe Brushy Mt ships the cyrpess ones with the garden hive.  I'll bet you can buy them seperate besides.

>Can you help me with your opinion on frame and foundations? I'm attracted to the ease of plastic but don't fully understand the pros and cons of all the variations.

Well, to me the main pro and con of foundation is whether it's something close to natural size to handle the Varroa.  So if I use foundation it's 4.9mm from Dadant or Brushy Mt.  But I often don't use any at all.  I started doing natural comb, partly because I'm a skeptic and I wasn't convinced that there was or was not anything natural about 4.9mm sized cells, so I let the bees decide.  Now that I've seen what they do building their own comb, I prefer it to foundation.  In my experience they will build their own comb the quickest.  They will build wax foundation the next quickest and they rebel against the plastic at first, but once they draw it they use it fine.  I was moving towards using plastic with I was hit by the Varroa and then made another turn towards small cell/natural cell.  They both work, it's more of a philosophical difference if you're the type who wants foundation or is willing to let the bees have more freedom.  :)

Another option is PermaComb.  Fully drawn plastic.  Same problems with acceptance as plastic foundation, but once they accept it, they don't have to draw it.  it's closer to natural sized.  It's (taking into account the difference in cell wall) the equivelant of 5.1mm.  Standard foundation is 5.4mm.

>Are all frames small cell or just some

I would do all of them, but then I don't use an excluder and I like the bees to be able to expand the brood nest as much as they want rather than swarm.

> and can I get package bees and simply add them if I were to get teh small frame??

If you get small cell foundation and put a package of bees on it they will, in my experience,  do better than on large cell.  To get the Varroa totally under control may take another turnover of comb.  This is simply things you would do anyway to prevent swarming.  Putting more frames into the brood nest when the bees start trying to contract it.  After a while you'll end up with another set of combs drawn by the bees that came from the first set.  The first beesyou get were from 5.4mm foundation.  They will draw bout 5.2 or 5.1mm cells.  The set of bees from that will draw about 5.0 or 4.9mm cells.  The bees from that will drawn about 4.9 or 4.8mm cells with some smaller and larger mixed in.  The larger mostly on the edges of the brood nest and the smaller in the center.

You can use just a strip of foundation instead of a whole sheet.  You can also put popscicle sticks in the groove to make a comb guide.  Kind of like a wooden strip instead of the strip of foundation.

[Jack Parr]

www.betterbee.com has good prices and they are in NY. Grenwich NY

Actually there are several sellers of beekeeping supplies but they mostly ALL sell the same stuff. I would look for pricing as a deciding factor, SHIPPING and avoiding paying sales taxes if you are into keeping your bucks.

Bear in mind that serious beekeepers, meaning large scale producers and the various Universities that have  bee studies programs are NOT into small cell.

M.Bush is a zealot on the small cell issue, and he may well be right, but there is a vast universe of diversified thought on the subject of bees and their keeping.  

There are some new bio-chemicals for treating hives that are showing some promise coming on stream that will keep the dreaded Verroa mites under control.

And then there is E V O L O U T I O N working as in D A R W I N I S M
that will probably solve the problem eventually.    


Do some serious reading, IF you are really interested.

[amymcg]

Betterbee has good prices and fast shipping to those on the east coast. Very helpful people.  They also now carry 4.9 Crimp wired deep foundation.

[Robo]

Ditto on BetterBee.  When I buy bee stuff, it is mainly from them.