natural comb = large cell?

[ragnar]

So last weekend I gave one of my hives two open frames. I inserted tongue depressors into the top grooves of the frames to give the bees a guide, but beyond that the frames were open. Today I went to check and found both of the open frames to be roughly 2/3 drawn out with comb. I expected the cell size to be standard size or slightly smaller than standard, but what i saw was rather surprising. I didn't get out a measuring tape to confirm it, but I'm fairly certain the cell sizes they are drawing out are LARGER than the cells on their plastic foundation. Is this possible? Is this normal?

[tjc1]

I have a hive that I let build entirely foundationless, and yes, some of the cell sizes are very large - even on one frame it can be partially large cell and partially small. Only have one year's experience with this, but they seem to use the large cells for drones or for honey storage.

[Dallasbeek]

Seems to me if you have large bees they're going to make large cells -- actually, various sizes, depending on the intended use.  If you have small bees, they'll draw smaller-celled comb (still, the cell size  will vary, depending on the intended use). A large queen might have trouble laying eggs in cells that are too small (this really should be another question).  Will large cells produce larger bees?  I think so.  That's why drone cells are made larger, right?

[sc-bee]

Yes it is very common to first get the larger cell- drone. At least with the few I tried. Move it too the outside (larger cell) and let them continue. At least that is what I did. Someone with more experience on the natural cell may tell you different as I only fill in a comb occasionally out of laziness.

[cao]

If the frames that you put in your hive were the only ones without plastic foundation then the bees needed a place to raise drones.  With plastic foundation the only place for the bees to raise drones would be in the burr comb between boxes.  I had a hive that had drawn a foundationless frame with half worker and half drone comb.

[iddee]

The bees want approx. 1/5 of the brood comb to be drone comb. That means about 2 out of 10 will be drone cells if all are foundationless, so if you add more to the same hive, they will likely draw the rest out as worker cells.

[ragnar]

Ah, the drone brood makes sense.

Has anyone tried adding an entire box of foundationless frames? Do the bees need a frame of foundation on either side of the empty frames as a guide, or will they successfully draw out an entire box. Just wondering if I could add a honey super of all foundationless.

[cao]

Yes I tried adding a box of foundationless last year.  You may have better luck than me.  My bees started building comb from the bottom and at a 45 degree angle from the frames.  I had to cut out about two frames worth of comb.  In my opinion the bees need a guide(at least frame or two of drawn comb or foundation) and they need a ladder to get to the top of the box.  Remember in the honey super the bees tend to draw comb thicker and crazier.

[Carol]

I put packages in 2 langs deeps  last fall...there were 4 med frames of honey in comb so I put 2 of them in each deep...the rest were empty frames. They drew them out...then I added a second deep for broodnest and pulled the 2 med frames from the first one and put in second. Both hives have drawn them all out..."blue" hive now has 2 supers that are 3/4 drawn and "pink"has one super 3/4 drawn.

When I put the supers on I moved the med frames up and replaced with empty frames. There was some brood comb on bottom of one so cut it out and put in deep frame. I have windows on the back and was surprised to see how fast they attached the comb to the top of the frame and started pulling the string out of the hive.

So far, all the drawn frames have been straight.

Before I have to leave...I will put a 3rd super on my "blue" hive and 2 on my "pink" hive.  Since the blue one has more drawn frames I may steal a couple for the 2 supers I need to put on the pink hive.  I realize I may be pushing them a bit but have to leave for 4-6 wks and the Cabbage Palms and Chinese Tallow will bloom before I get back. I hope 3 supers will be enough for them to fill up.

The frames of comb that I used for starting the packages were from a hive that swarmed and ended up Queenless. When I started that hive it had no frames with comb and they built straight.