Questions about AHB ... And maybe a defense

Dallasbeek · May 18, 2014, 08:41:11 PM

I misunderstood what was going on in another string about requeening a strong hive and sc-bee, Better.to.Bee.Than, 10framer, Wolfer and maybe some others got on me (thanks for the civil tone, but I guess I deserved to be taken down a bit). The thing is that here in Dallas, if a hive gets hot some beekeepers start thinking Africanized genetics and maybe aren't thinking so much about all the other reasons this could come about, so when they talk about requeening they are thinking about getting rid of the AHB genetics. I've heard there's a law, rule or something in Texas that if you find AHB genetics in a hive, you're supposed to destroy the hive. I haven't verified this, but it makes me wonder. From Mexico south, beekeepers seem to have learned to live with these Africanized crosses and some people in Arizona and south Texas go out of their way to raise AHBs and say they are very productive and disease/pest free. You beekeepers in South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, and so on face the same threat we do in Texas. What's the thinking on this? Anybody willing to defend those "killer bees"?

Gary

RHBee · May 19, 2014, 12:40:40 AM

Quote from: Dallasbeek on May 18, 2014, 08:41:11 PM
What's the thinking on this? Anybody willing to defend those "killer bees"?

Gary

Nope. Mean bees are not an option. I constantly prove to my self that my bees pass a simple test. Prior to opening and messing with them, I approach each hive from the front w/o gear on and watch. I have bees bump me and crawl on me but no stings. This assures me that others are safe to be around these bees. I requeen for poor temperment but this is just one reason.

Steel Tiger · May 19, 2014, 01:39:41 AM

I can't see anyone with a large number of hives wanting to wear a suit of armor just to get near a hive.

GSF · May 19, 2014, 06:28:06 AM

Interesting, seems like I have also read that they (AHB) are the preferred honey bee in Central/South American & Africa. I read that once established in an area they are not as aggressive. Maybe the gene pool is altered. It was just during the moving in of an area (state/county, ect) that they were most aggressive. Jury's still out.

10framer · May 19, 2014, 09:14:21 AM

i don't remember "getting on" you but i suppose i could have.
i've caught a couple of swarms that i feel fairly certain had ahb genetics. they were defensive and swarmed over and over again. i don't think i'd keep them based off of those experiences.

sc-bee · May 19, 2014, 09:58:32 AM

Naw, I don't remember you being out of line or even close in the other thread. You stated your point of view in a Civil way and I think ask a question in turn. Can't remember now, sometimers kicking in :-D

Unfortunately, we have been told in SC it is not if we see AHB it is a matter of when. They are in South Georgia now even though Ga don't speak of it much due to the location of queen breeders there. It definitely will change the face of beekeeping in my state if/when the liability of AHB arrives. My few hives are in a rural but populated area. The liability vs gain (just a hobby) would probably be a show stopper for me.

Folks have learned to live with AHB and keep bees in an AHB are. Obviously you are, I think, and folks near me in Florida. As you say some folkks even keep AHB. I will just have to see if the time arrives for me. But no I have had a couple of semi mean hives and I hated working them.

HomeSteadDreamer · May 19, 2014, 12:37:28 PM

The expert at UF here in florida says they really don't see them in north florida and I would expect that would include Georgia and such unless they come in at a port but they don't seem to overwinter or thrive.

sc-bee · May 19, 2014, 02:19:58 PM

Quote from: HomeSteadDreamer on May 19, 2014, 12:37:28 PM
The expert at UF here in florida says they really don't see them in north florida and I would expect that would include Georgia and such unless they come in at a port but they don't seem to overwinter or thrive.

Actually if the expert is Jerry Hayes then he is who I have heard speak. Maybe he has changed his mind since I heard him speak severL years ago. Or is it Jamie Ellis now? Hayes had moved to the Ag dept I think. Also I will have to look for the information/ Article where South Ga. finally admitted having bees that tested positive for the AHB gene. Is this the same as being full blown AFB? I have no clue as I am not the expert or claim to be.

At least one or more swarms has entered Charleston, as it is a deep water port. They were destroyed. Any city with a deep water port is susceptible if they can survive in the climate. Just like the fire ant, I think it is just a matter of how long it takes them to adapt.

sc-bee · May 19, 2014, 02:25:46 PM

Quote from: HomeSteadDreamer on May 19, 2014, 12:37:28 PM
The expert at UF here in florida says they really don't see them in north florida and I would expect that would include Georgia and such unless they come in at a port but they don't seem to overwinter or thrive.

This looks like a confirmation to me. What do you think?
http://archive.11alive.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=159260

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/10/21/georgia.bees.fatality/

Or here:
http://www.gabeekeeping.com/ahb-faq.html

http://www.gabeekeeping.com/ahb.html

Dallasbeek · May 19, 2014, 03:41:50 PM

10framer, I think you and the others corrected me, properly and in a nice way. I wasn't complaing about it. I learned something in that string and it brought to mind the question I posed in this one. I know I have a lot to learn and feel privileged to associate with you guys and ladies. Besides, even if one of you REALLY "got on" me about something, my skin got real thick from some of the stuff I took from judges when I practiced law -- unfortunately not thick enough that when a bee gets unhappy with me it doesn't hurt like sin. I didn't know Africanized bees were entering the country on ships. All I had read on the subject indicated they were just moving northward rapidly and spreading out, taking over existing hives and breeding with virgin queens from our hives. And you folks as far north as South Carolina may be kidding yourselves about their survivability in your climates -- and maybe a lot farther north than that. AHB DNA has been found in Las Vegas and northern California. What's to keep their offspring (mostly a cross between domestic or feral bees of whatever variety) from picking up some of the genetics of Russian or Caucasian bees and being able to survive in Canada, for example? Dr. Marla Spivak says it can't happen, but lots of science has been proven wrong (meaning no disrespect for Dr. Spivak).

Gary :soapbox:

HomeSteadDreamer · May 19, 2014, 07:09:19 PM

When AHB first arrived they said that they would spread up to 300 miles north per year. If that had turned out to be true they'd be in New York at the end of 4 years. Instead it has been 23 years and the most current (2009) map from the dept. of Ag. looks like this.

http://nationalatlas.gov/mld/afrbeep.html

As far as the CNN article I don't know how they 'confirmed' AHB but most AHB wouldn't give 100 stings it would be 1000's. I know other news organizations has given terrible information on chickens so not sure what CNN knows.

I also include a map here from 2000. Please note that it hasn't spread much north from the 2 maps.

http://media.maps101.com/SUB/GITN/ARCHIVES/PDF/548_120100beesc.pdf

Texas has it bad but most places a hive with AHB would be very rare. Could it happen yes. Any port can bring them in. They can spread but the winter normally knocks them back.

I believe it was Ellis that came to our bee club but it has been over a year ago.

sc-bee · May 19, 2014, 11:14:20 PM

Homestead I believe Ellis took Hayes place. I remember Hayes mentioned the weep holes in the power pole fixtures in Fla making the poles prime AHB nesting cavities. Ellis is a good, knowledgeable, likeable guy. Fla is lucky to have him SC just tried to steal him :) I agree AHB were predicted to move quicker. I am glad they didn't. As far as the report it was picked up by CNN from local GA. channels and the AHB was confirmed by the ag dept of Ga. I remember the incident hitting the new here in SC. Do you really think the Ag Dept would go out on that llimb without proof ..... come on now :?

Dallas- I agree it is a matter of time just how long is the question? 5yrs-10 yrs- 15ys? As you said, most things adapt with time. Who knows, may be a better calmer strain. They definitely have the genes to survive....

10framer · May 20, 2014, 11:47:09 AM

i'm pretty sure i read about a couple of colonies being found in south alabama but "contained" maybe 10 years ago.
looking at that 2009 map i'd say the coverage makes survivability in the coastal areas of south carolina realistic.

BeeMaster2 · May 20, 2014, 12:47:33 PM

With all of the bees being moved around the country and a large percent of them being wintered in Florida south of I-4 you would expect the AHB to be moving much faster around the country. Yes they have had a hive or 2 show up north of I-4 but they never seem to be able to get established. Most of those cases probably came from a Snowbee that was moved up north. I am really glad that they never seem to move north of I-4. A friend of mine said that he helped a friend of his work on his bees that had stayed most of the previous year below I-4. They found several hives that were really aggressive. It is pretty hard to find and destroy a queen a really aggressive hive.
Jim

jayj200 · May 25, 2014, 11:16:18 PM

Quote from: GSF on May 19, 2014, 06:28:06 AM
Interesting, seems like I have also read that they (AHB) are the preferred honey bee in Central/South American & Africa. I read that once established in an area they are not as aggressive. Maybe the gene pool is altered. It was just during the moving in of an area (state/county, ect) that they were most aggressive. Jury's still out.

mine were mean in the city they gone