A little help please

[craneman54]

This will be my first spring keeping bees. I have enough 10 frame medium boxes, inner covers ,telescoping covers and bottom boards made for 4 hives.The pieces for the frames are all cut. Waiting for a warm enough day to assemble them in the shop.

I plan to go foundation less. My frames will have a triangle shape piece of wood for guides under the top bar and on the bottom bars.
I plan to put out some swarm traps in hopes of getting my bees that way. I'd rather not buy nucs or packages as money is tight right now.

I will buy lemongrass oil as a lure. Do I have to have bees wax in the boxes also. I asked the only local beek I know if he would sell me some old comb or wax. He said all his wax is promised to someone already. If I have to buy wax should I get it from one of the bee supply places or try and find someone else local.
Is anyone on this site willing to sell me a few pieces of old comb or just some unfiltered wax that would still have the bee smell to it?

Any advice would be helpful and appreciated. 

[iddee]

Watch a few videos by JP doing cutouts. If you start your first year foundationless, you will be doing some cutouts in your hives. Then you will have your own wax. They will draw wild comb in all directions before you know it.  I suggest you start with foundation and go to foundationless a few frames at a time until you get the foundation rotated out, and get a bit of experience.

There are several beeks on the forum from La. Send a few in your area a pm. I'm sure any of them would give you an old piece of comb, or put your town in your profile and one may pm you and offer it.

[craneman54]

I have watched JP's videos and learned alot.
I see what you are saying. I can get enough foundation to do at least the bottom 2 or 3 lower boxes of each hive then start switching them out. Assuming you don't have to buy 500 at a time.

I will list my town in my profile.

[iddee]

You can buy 10 at a time.
2 bottom boxes should be enough to get them established. In your area, you don't want to give them any more space than they have bees to cover. SHB....................

[craneman54]

You can buy 10 at a time.
2 bottom boxes should be enough to get them established. In your area, you don't want to give them any more space than they have bees to cover. SHB....................

I can do 10 easy enough. I'll have to make sure I get the small call size.

[iddee]

Why. As soon as they are gone, the bees will go to the larger natural cell that they make on the foundationless.

[craneman54]

Isn't that the small cell?
I am thinking 4.9 cell size.

[iddee]

Normal foundation is approx. 5.4. Small is 4.9.  Natural ranges across the frame, from 4.6 to 5.6 and more. You can start with what you want, but the bees will draw a variety to meet their needs.

[craneman54]

OK, that's fine by me if the bees make the size they want.

My concern with the larger size cell is mites and SHB.

[iddee]

Mites and SHB will get them all. They don't care what size it is.

[OldMech]

Iddee is right. I use mostly foundation-less frames in my hives...   Not from any misplaced sense of NATURAL beekeeping, but because I am a cheep bugger...  In a new box of foundation, it will always help if you can break up the space with a few pieces of foundation.. two empty frames, one with foundation, etc..  At the very least it will limit the cross comb to those two empty frames.
   Some hives will draw your foundation-less frames with precision and perfection, and the next hive in line will work twice as hard to ignore the guides and draw cross comb. It is easiest to give them foundation, and once it is drawn, place foundation-less frames between that drawn foundation. They will 99% of the time draw you a perfect frame.
   About half way down the page I talk about foundation-less, and quote Mr. Bush there as well. He has some good points, so you should also check his site.
   http://outyard.weebly.com/frames.html

[craneman54]

iddee, I thought the small or natural cell sizes helped with varoa and trackheal mites .

Oldmech, I read your piece and found it helpful as well as what iddee has said.

I will heed the advice you both have offered and continue to try and learn more.

One more question please.
When I go to set out swarm traps, would it be ok to use some of my 10 frame medium boxes or should I build nuc size boxes for the traps?

[iddee]

First, if natural cell was effective for mites, all the feral bees would not have died out when the mites got here.

The bee's preferred size for swarm traps is approx. one deep 10 frame. A nuc is preferred by the beek because he is cheap and lazy.

[Michael Bush]

>I will buy lemongrass oil as a lure. Do I have to have bees wax in the boxes also.

Old brood comb is helpful but in descending order of significance I would say the most attractive things to a swarm are:

Lemongrass Essential Oil
QMP (PsuedoQueen or alcohol from a jar full of retired queens in alcohol)
Old brood comb
Correct volume (about that of a ten frame deep)
Correct entrance size (about 1 1/4" in diameter or so.  1" seems to work well)
Height (10 to 15 feet is ideal, but I usually just go what I can reach from a short step ladder)

[craneman54]

The bee's preferred size for swarm traps is approx. one deep 10 frame. A nuc is preferred by the beek because he is cheap and lazy.

Thanks I guess I will have to build a few deeps then.


Michael Bush, Lemongrass oil it is then as I don't have any of the other lures.

Thanks for the help 

[OldMech]

Catching swarms has been described as similar to fishing. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt. If you dont get any bites move to a new spot. With the loss of MOST feral hives, catching swarms became impossible.. because there were none, or very few.  In my area, the feral hives are "slowly" coming back. i am getting calls for cut outs again. I caught only a single feral colony in a swarm box last spring.  So, have patience!
   If you have the time, doing removals will get you more than swarm boxes, but its a lot more work. Enough "more" work that you should charge for doing them, IF you are a fair carpenter. If you are not, then limit your removals to things that do not need repaired. Houses sheds etc that are being torn down, trees that were cut or blown down etc.
   Find a local club and join. There is a good probability that one of the established beekeepers would be happy to give you a spring split. At worst, you can pay for that split.
   One way or another, you will get your bees. You sound determined, and it is obvious you are reading and doing your homework.

[craneman54]

Yep I am a hard headed cajun. I have my mind made up to do this so IT SHALL BE DONE.

I have been reading and watching videos for awhile now. My biggest problem is all the meds I take mess up my memory. Info goes in but recalling it is sometimes a problem. This is why I have to ask so many questions. If I do something myself I can remember it. If I read about it, what I read sometimes gets all jumbled up.

I wish I could do removals. I can't stay that long away from the wife. She has dementia and I need to watch her pretty close. Two to 3 hours during the day is all I can stay away from her and that time is getting shorter as time goes on. Also my health won't allow me to do removals.

I WILL get this done one way or another. I have all the time in the world.

[Michael Bush]

As far as cell size:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm

[craneman54]

As far as cell size:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm

This is what I was basically referring to. I probably stated it wrong in the beginning when I was asked about the cell size.

[Michael Bush]

> I probably stated it wrong in the beginning when I was asked about the cell size.

Probably not.  It's just a controversial subject.