Could this be Nosema?

Beewildered61 · February 21, 2015, 06:04:42 PM

I opened my bees last weekend, just to peek and see if they had honey left, and everything seemed fine... Today I was out walking around the yard, and decided to see what the girls were up to, since it's been real cold all week. When I got to this one hive, this is what was on the front, and there is a little on the side of the deeps... Could this be Nosema? I hope not, but if it is, I have some Fumagilin-B I bought last year, just in case.

Michael Bush · February 21, 2015, 06:22:43 PM

Confined bees always get dysentery. Doolittle argued it was a mistake to call it a disease and I agree. Could it be? Sure. Could it not be? More likely. Nosema apis is a disease that can cause dysentery, but it is virtually extinct now that it's been displaced by Nosema ceranae and Nosema ceranae is unlikely to cause dysentery and is more likely to be an issue in the middle of summer and is made worse by treating with fumidil...

I would leave them alone or I would feed them. Feeding any kind of honey or sugar has been shown to be effective on Nosema. It gets their digestive system working again.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnosema.htm

Beewildered61 · February 21, 2015, 06:36:35 PM

Thanks! I just checked them last weekend and they still have honey in the super I left on for them...I am keeping a close watch on them, because I have extra honey left over from last year, so if they need feeding, that's what I will give them.

They have been cooped up all week, we had rain at the first of the week, and then colder than normal temps all week. They might of been able to get out yesterday, not sure, but today was the first day since last weekend otherwise.

Michael Bush · February 21, 2015, 06:57:47 PM

The idea of feeding is that you get them to eat the syrup even if they are storing it and that gets their digestive system cleaned out. In other words, just because they still have stores doesn't mean that feeding might not help with the dysentery. Now I'm not saying you have to feed. It will likely clear up in a day or two on it's own, but if it doesn't, you might consider it. I usually do nothing and it has always cleared up.

GSF · February 21, 2015, 08:29:56 PM

I'm glad this came up. Today was the first time in a few days that the girls were able to get out. On one of my hives it looked like they held it until they almost got out the door. The entrance was pooped covered. When I checked the top of the frames under the feeder they looked clean.

Thanks for the tip there Michael.

OldMech · February 21, 2015, 11:41:52 PM

Fumagilin B makes N Cerenae Worse???
As I understand it, it is the ONLY approved treatment for either Nosema? It has in fact made a pretty big difference in the ... "dysentery" problems I have had over winter.. i have never had the problem in the middle of the summer, or any other time. Only in late winter after they have been cooped up for two months or more.. I have lost hives to it.. What a stinking MESS!! I started feeding Fumagilin B in the fall and losses to (dysentery) Nosema have been almost non existent with hives coming out of winter BOOMING when fed the medicated syrup in the fall before..
i have 1 outyard of 4 that I do not treat, and in that yard I typically lose between two and four hives out of ten to fifteen hives, to Nosema, or something that resembles nosema, with the cleansing INSIDE the hive, and all over the front of the hive etc...
Cleaning up after a mess like that is not pleasant, its been easier to burn the hive and replace it. My losses of that sort in the treated yards just dont exist. I have always attributed this to the feeding (or not) of fall syrup with Fumagillin B. The only two chems I use at all, are OAV and Fumagillin in the treated hives. To date, it has been very successful.

Is there an alternative to using Fumagilin B? if there is I would be glad to hear it. Until then, I can personally guarantee it makes a difference here, and to my bees, and I will continue to use it. Mostly because I like having live bees come spring.

Michael Bush · February 22, 2015, 11:13:06 PM

>Fumagilin B makes N Cerenae Worse???

http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1003185

"The microsporidia, particularly N. ceranae, are apparently released from the suppressive effects of fumagillin at concentrations that continue to impact honey bee physiology. The current application protocol for fumagillin may exacerbate N. ceranae infection rather than suppress it."

OldMech · February 26, 2015, 10:18:41 PM

Thank you for the link..
Basically, when you STOP treating and the concentration begins to drop off, N. Cerenae explodes.. so... what do you treat it with?

This seems like many things I have heard. Dont feed your bees sugar, dont treat for Varroa, DONT do xxx, its not good for your bees... Right!! But, isnt..... dying bad for my bees too?

I am all for not using something as nasty as Fumagillin B, and apparently, I am fortunate that my bees have not yet contracted N. Cerenae, as treatments have worked very well, but when they DO get it, what is the approved method of treating, if Fumagillin B does not work?

GSF · March 01, 2015, 10:13:25 PM

The hive I had concerns about has "cleaned" up their act. "Knock on wood". No more skids around the landing/taking off zones.

Beewildered61 · March 02, 2015, 09:15:20 PM

Mine doesn't look any worse...I don't think they are dropping bombs on the porch anymore.

Colobee · March 03, 2015, 09:59:28 AM

Quote from: Michael Bush on February 22, 2015, 11:13:06 PM
>Fumagilin B makes N Cerenae Worse???

The current application protocol for fumagillin may exacerbate N. ceranae infection rather than suppress it."

It appears this is not a universal mandate. The flip side to this statement is that it "may not..."

Along this line of discussion, does anyone know the shelf life of Fumagillan? I'm pretty sure mine is long expired. I tried to find an answer last year but failed.

Michael Bush · March 03, 2015, 02:24:06 PM

> what do you treat it with?

I have not treated for Nosema at all in 41 years of beekeeping. I have never seen any reason to. Dysentery is normal in the spring or anytime they get to fly after confinement.

OldMech · March 04, 2015, 05:40:30 PM

Quote from: Michael Bush on March 03, 2015, 02:24:06 PM
> what do you treat it with?

I have not treated for Nosema at all in 41 years of beekeeping. I have never seen any reason to. Dysentery is normal in the spring or anytime they get to fly after confinement.

MB, you apparently have enough hives that you dont care if a few die? Or are you saying you have NO loss because of Nosema at all? if that is the case, Put me in line to buy some queens from you!

I have lost hives to it. My mentor lost hives to it, i have seen others lose hives to it.. IT.. Was it Nosema? i dont know, it was TERRIBLE Dysentery all over the inside of the hive, outside of the hive, etc.. As stated above, it was easier to BURN the whole mess than try to clean and disinfect it!
With the use of Fumagilin B that has not happened again. Quite the opposite in fact, I have had hives come out of winter already exploding, and apparently am not the only one that has noticed this?

Beekeepers who have fed fumagillin to field colonies years ago had noted significant differences in colony build up. In fact, many of them stopped using fumagillin. The colonies built up too quickly and swarm control became nearly impossible.
http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/files/147621.pdf

Just one example I have read.. All I really want is an alternative because i dont want my hives to die. Until i can get an acceptable alternative that I can plainly see works as well as Fumagilin B, I will keep using it. I have read about Nozevit? (SP?) Thymol, vinegar, HBH, and a few other things that supposedly work.. FEEDING apparently helps reduce the number of spores.. but may prove difficult to do when its 20 degrees.
Apparently, none of those things seemed to make any significant difference in the losses associated with Nosema when subjected to close scrutiny.
As I near 50 hives, and make plans to go past 50, I do very much long for a treatment that is less problematic, as well as cheaper!

Perhaps, there is someone willing to pay me for each hive I lose to Nosema?? (proven loss by having the dead bees tested)
That would make replacing the losses much less painful, but then, I tend to want to stay clear away from folks when they tell me they use the tuff love treatment, if their untreated bees die, then all is as nature intended...........
Honestly, I prefer to save my hives, and continue to give them better queens. It saves me from having to split hives and lose honey production. When another less nasty product arrives that can treat nosema, I will be one of the first to give it a go.
On the other hand, if Mr. Bush's bees do NOT die from Nosema, I / we would need no fumagillin, and no treatment, THAT, would be the cats meow!
Do you have queens available Michael?

Michael Bush · March 05, 2015, 09:59:12 AM

That bacteria in the gut of the bee provides protection from AFB, EFB and Nosema was originally discovered by Martha Gilliam:
http://beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/gilliam-archives

The bees have a lactic acid bacteria in their stomach that protects them from Nosema apis (and AFB and EFB):
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0033188
http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/abs/2010/01/m09040/m09040.html

And even Nosema ceranae:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00436-010-1875-1#page-1

I don't see that it's genetic, although there could be a genetic component. What you probably want is the bacteria that got killed somewhere along the way by Fumidil and/or terramycin and/or tylosin.

Colobee · March 05, 2015, 10:37:03 AM

Sounds like they need a shot of yogurt after their antibiotics, just like us...

Seriously - interesting discussion. I've never had much of a problem with Nosema. I treated for it in my early days - packages got it for stress and all the hives in Fall feedings.

I haven't seen Nosema symptoms for many, many years.

rober · March 05, 2015, 12:54:58 PM

last year I sent bees from 2 deadouts to the usda bee lab in md. they had a 3-4 million spore count per bee. the only answer I've gotten from anyone about what was too high of a count was from jerry hayes saying anything over 1 million was a problem. the usda contact told me that they are finding that often times when nosema c. is treated with fumigiilin that the spore count drops but 3-4 weeks later there is a rebound effect & the count soars. I'm checking hives this year & if I find a high enough count I might try nosevit & see what happens.