Where are the bees going? (Late Winter Losses)

chux · March 11, 2015, 10:23:25 AM

Earlier this week I spoke with a commercial beek in NC. He is going through his yards, prepping for pollination. He tells me that it looks like he has lost around 90% of his colonies. This is in multiple bee yards. The bees were on blueberries and canola last year. I went into some of the hives to see for myself, what he is finding. In a few of the hives I went in, there was a cluster of dead bees who had obviously starved or frozen. But the vast majority I looked at had lots of honey, and no bees. No dead bees. No small cluster. Nothing. In the last few weeks, they just vanished.

Last night I spoke with a beek who has 10 hives. He has kept bees for years. I asked how his bees were doing. Not too good. He went in yesterday and found nine of the ten were gone. Plenty of honey stores. Pollen present. No bees. No dead bees. His bees are on an "organic" farm. A very different area and circumstance than the commercial beek.

We are going to get up to 80 degrees today. I will be checking all my hives. As of Sunday, I know 11 of my 18 hives had lots of traffic in front of them. I need to verify it isn't robbing of a dead out. I also need to check those hives where I haven't visited lately. Hoping to find everybody alive and well.

What do you guys think of these losses? CCD? Is anybody else hearing about/experiencing these heavy losses? The commercial beek said he has spoken with several other commercial guys who suffered heavy losses this winter. Even in different states.

OldMech · March 11, 2015, 10:35:21 AM

As I understand it, with CCD you will usually find the queen, a few young bees and some brood.. All the rest of the bees are gone..
I have some deadouts, but the bees are all still there.
if they can, bees LEAVE the hive to die, so it has always been my assumption that they got into something toxic and skeedaddled to save the hive.. leaving only the queen and young bees who were never fed whatever the toxic stuff that got the rest of them. Only a guess.

chux · March 11, 2015, 11:09:25 AM

Yeah, I read that CCD will classically leave the queen and a small cluster of bees. Just a handful, if that. But in these hives, there is nothing. No bees. No queen. Plenty of honey. We have had a relatively mild winter. Way too cold and early in the year for an abscond to think they had any chance of survival. Their very nature would prevent them from absconding a few weeks ago. And yet...no bees in the hive. No capped brood in most of the hives.

I could understand losing a queen in mid-winter, and not having brood. But wouldn't the cluster still live through winter? I think it possible that something drove them from the hive. But what? These beeks handle bees differently. They treat with different products.

Beewildered61 · March 14, 2015, 04:23:44 PM

Same thing happened to one of mine a couple of weeks ago... I had 3, so far only the one gone (fingers crossed). The thread is called, "Can some tell me what happened to this hive?" I think... got a couple pics posted with it...

chux · March 14, 2015, 09:33:53 PM

I saw the other post, and your pics. Yours could have been CCD, but I would have expected fewer bees left in the hive. As for what we are seeing...no bees, but plenty of honey left. I just don't know. I spoke with another commercial beekeeper/supplier in eastern NC this week. I didn't ask for specifics, but he told me that he knows of several beeks, including himself, who suffered major losses this winter. I want to hear more reports on winter losses across the country. Are more folks in different regions seeing hives with no bees at all, but honey left over?

10framer · March 14, 2015, 10:43:13 PM

failed supersedures in the fall would leave empty hives in the spring.

Joe D · March 14, 2015, 10:43:48 PM

I only had 6 hives all were doing good. I went to Fla for 3 or 4 days came back 1 hive had no bee in it or around it with honey left in hive. This was two years ago. I had one hive last year that swarmed and was all gone. But in a couple of weeks another colony moved into that hive. This year so far haven't lost any. Good luck to ya'll.

Joe

chux · March 15, 2015, 01:37:07 PM

A failed supercedure in fall could lead to an emtpy hive in late winter, I suppose. But what are the chances of 90% failed supercedure of 800-1,000 hives? What are the chances of failed supercedure for 9 out of 10 hives on an organic farm? I know these ten hives had first year queens in them that were laying during the summer.

Most beeks who allow supercedure or open-mating seem to find a high rate of success. Something else is going on. But I do appreciate you thinking about this, and responding. Maybe failed supercedure accounts for some of these losses.?

GLOCK · March 15, 2015, 01:49:05 PM

I think for most it's bad beekeeping.
I have lost 1 hive since 3/14 .

10framer · March 15, 2015, 06:53:25 PM

well, my other thought would be improperly treated for mites in the fall causing it or exposure to who knows what if they are getting trucked all over the country. i think late supercedures are a result of mite infestations and it is still "late winter". i've only seen one beekeeper on the commercial sites mention heavy losses this year.

chux · March 16, 2015, 10:32:19 AM

GLOCK, I don't know that it is usually bad beekeeping that causes losses. Colonies die all the time. It's a natural process. Happens to feral colonies all the time. Conditions and survivability are affected by many different factors. You can do everything right, and a colony can still fail. That said, bad beekeeping can cause a colony to fail. It is one possibility.

10framer, I wonder about the mite treatment too. But...I used the same mite treatment as the commercial beek, and lost no hives with these symptoms. (Of coarse he has been using it a while, and the mites may be resistant in his hives...hmmmm) Also, the other beekeeper I mentioned who had the same symptoms, used a totally different treatment regimen. I don't know what the other commercial beek used.

About the trucking and exposure...His bees went to blueberries in the spring, and "mingled" with bees that had been all over the country. Maybe they picked something up.

What baffles me is that the same symptoms were found by a local beek who doesn't truck his hives, and to my knowledge, has no trucked hives near his apiary. Since they have the same symptoms, I would expect the cause to be the same.

Thanks for the replies, guys. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know nothin'. But it is fun to try to figure it out.

10framer · March 16, 2015, 10:38:48 AM

yeah, i'm just wondering if he applied the treatment wrong. as far as the organic guy goes, the bees don't know they're organic so maybe they robbed out some nearby hives that had something.

chux · March 18, 2015, 10:40:06 AM

10framer, the treatment is a common commercial operation treatment that was done properly. Yesterday I heard about another commercial beek from a little farther south of me, who had the same symptoms in a massive loss. Around 90%. He used Apistan.

So, I know of 2 commercial beeks in different areas who use different treatments, who both report around 90% losses. Hives still have honey, but no bees. And one experienced hobbyist with the same symptoms who also lost 90%. And a bee supplier in this part of the state who said he had bad losses and has heard of several beeks having bad losses this winter. (I didn't get details from him about symptoms or percentages)

But as I read the forum, I don't hear many people talking about big losses. Maybe I'm just missing them?

BeeMaster2 · March 18, 2015, 12:15:15 PM

I had 40% losses this winter out of 13 hives. This is really high for me, the previous year I increased my hive count during the winter by 2 not lost them.
All of the lost hives had honey and pollen remaining and heavy signs or robbing, lots of wax cappings in the bottom, no dead bees in the bottom, they recently had good numbers. I suspect it is an absconding problem. There was no food available when they left but the weather had warmed up before each one left.
Jim

chux · March 18, 2015, 03:01:41 PM

Sorry to hear about the heavy losses for you, Jim. Sounds like the same symptoms. Maybe it is an absconding problem. But on such a large scale? Absconding in late winter is unnatural. It goes against the biology of the bee. They are designed to seek survival. This is why I don't believe the weather fooled a colony into absconding too early. Maybe a colony here and there, but 40%-90%?

What in the world would put them in an absconding mode during winter? You didn't add any chemicals during this time. You didn't go in the hive and "bug" them. They weren't being overrun by SHB. They had enough room for the colony at that point in the season. I could see a colony getting a wild hair here or there, but not those high percentages. Something is triggering the abscond, if that is what is going on.

BeeMaster2 · March 18, 2015, 05:54:24 PM

Quote from: chux on March 18, 2015, 03:01:41 PM
Sorry to hear about the heavy losses for you, Jim. Sounds like the same symptoms. Maybe it is an absconding problem. But on such a large scale? Absconding in late winter is unnatural. It goes against the biology of the bee. They are designed to seek survival. This is why I don't believe the weather fooled a colony into absconding too early. Maybe a colony here and there, but 40%-90%?

What in the world would put them in an absconding mode during winter? You didn't add any chemicals during this time. You didn't go in the hive and "bug" them. They weren't being overrun by SHB. They had enough room for the colony at that point in the season. I could see a colony getting a wild hair here or there, but not those high percentages. Something is triggering the abscond, if that is what is going on.

Chic,
You are correct, I don't treat or inspect during the winter.
My theory is that the bees have enough African bee genetics to abscond when there is not enough food in the area to keep them there. This is what they do in Africa to survive droughts. Kinda like migrating for better pastures.
Jim

GLOCK · March 18, 2015, 07:47:56 PM

I treated one time this past fall with OAV and thats it . i made sure all hives had alot of honey on them feed very little sugar two 3 nucs and only lost 3% 1 hive out of 32 it was a sm nuc. And i'm in the north . I find keeping bee's alive if easy you just have to love what your doing.

10framer · March 18, 2015, 09:07:56 PM

i've never treated for mites and my losses were 18 percent this winter and i probably could have lowered that by nursing a couple through that i chose to do combinations with instead. i went in with 16 and came out with 13. 2 hives starved early.
last year i had about 20 percent losses, the year before i had about 20 percent and the year before i had none.
jim raises an interesting point. where did these guys get their queens from? if they were bred in florida or texas they may very well have had some african genetics. even if they raised their own from one breeder that was africanized they would very likely have gotten a high rate of genetic carry over. if they had done that a couple of generations back they would likely have a lot of african genetics in the drones by now and be breeding themselves back to near pure africanized stock.

capt44 · March 18, 2015, 09:13:28 PM

I have a friend that lost 6 hives do to the bees absconding.
There was honey in the hives, the bees just left.
He checked his hives Sunday when it warmed up and NO BEES.

Dallasbeek · March 18, 2015, 09:31:50 PM

10framer, I've read that if she's bred with just one africanized drone, she'll prefer that sperm somehow and her offspring will tend to be africanized. I don't see how that could be true, but that's what somebody wrote. If so, if there's any africanized genetics in the area, you're taking a big chance. Whatever, I'd like to get some northern stock, particularly Minnesota Hygienic.