Supercedure cells photo

Rurification · July 11, 2015, 02:22:31 PM

I did an inspection today and found a total of 26 supercedure cells in this hive. I guess they didn't like their queen. [Package installed end of April.] We did find areas of capped brood, but no eggs no larvae and no queen.

According to Michael Bush's bee math, these cells are around 12-13 days old, so a new queen should be laying in a couple of weeks. Of the 26 cells, I sure hope these bees find a queen they like this time.

mikecva · July 11, 2015, 03:47:12 PM

With 26 cell, I think it is past not liking her. I think they went right to hate. Good luck. -Mike

Michael Bush · July 11, 2015, 05:13:11 PM

26 cells is unlikely to be a supersedure. Sounds like swarming. Are they all the same age? Swarm cells are staggered in age...

Rurification · July 11, 2015, 05:31:05 PM

They all looked just like these.

Plenty of brood space in the boxes, not much honey or pollen. Not nectar bound. We inspected 3 weeks ago and they had drawn all frames of the first box and had an empty super on top with a drawn frame in the center of that. They were a little testy, but good brood on a few of the frames, spotty brood on others.

Michael Bush · July 11, 2015, 08:13:50 PM

Free queens... I'd split them up for the queens even if I didn't think they were going to swarm.

sc-bee · July 11, 2015, 09:24:08 PM

Certainly split them to mating nucs. At least a few. Why risk it all on the first one out?

cao · July 11, 2015, 11:16:35 PM

I agree with Michael and sc-bee. That was my first thought too. It's still early enough for them to swarm around here. Especially after seeing a swarm fly off from a tree behind my hives this afternoon. I don't know if it was from my hives or was just passing through. I guess I was a little late checking on my hives today. If you have the equipment, I would split them. Even if they don't build up enough for winter, you could combine them then or try to over winter them as nucs. I started with 4 hives that made it through winter and now I have 18(ranging in size from 6 ten frame boxes tall packed with bees to a five frame medium nuc. This year is the first year that I started using 5 frame nuc boxes. I strongly recommend that beeks have some nucs around if they can. They are so much more fun working than the hives that you need a crane to lift the boxes off.

Rurification · July 12, 2015, 09:14:06 AM

I do have one empty nuc box, but I don't know how make the split since there are no eggs and open brood to split, too.

I take one of those frames with queen cells and .... please advise.

Oh - I also have a deep follower board that I could use to divide a 10 frame box into two parts. Would that work?

cao · July 12, 2015, 09:51:20 AM

A mating nuc can be as small as 1-2 frames. When I made splits earlier this year with queen cells, I took the frame with queen cell and added a frame or two that had pollen/nectar or capped honey. Then added an empty frame or two to fill out the box. You can also shake some extra bees off of a frame if you think you need some more bees in the nuc. Basically when you are starting with a queen cell, you don't need any brood. It helps to keep the population up while the queen gets hatched and mated but not necessary.

Quote from: Rurification on July 12, 2015, 09:14:06 AM
Oh - I also have a deep follower board that I could use to divide a 10 frame box into two parts. Would that work?

I don't see why that wouldn't work. I have a couple of the Coats plywood nuc boxes that added a board in the middle to make it into two 3 frame mating nucs. As long as they have their own separate entrances I think it would work.

I think one of the best things about making nucs is that if you have a strong hive or two, it doesn't set them back any more than taking a frame of brood from a strong hive to donate to a weak one. The strong hive won't notice it much at all.

Good luck and have fun with your bees.

Rurification · July 12, 2015, 10:04:33 AM

Thank you! I think pretty slowly, and am not very intuitive with the bees yet. We're discussing options. I have a rain free window today and a willing husband with a table saw.

Rurification · July 12, 2015, 01:44:12 PM

Update: We split 6 ways with each one getting some queen cells, some brood and some stores. One of my other hives is doing well and we got a couple of extra frames of honey from them.

The hardest part was cutting the deep comb down to fit the 4 medium nucs, but I've been wanting to do that for a while [switch over to all mediums] so this was a good excuse.

Right now the weather and the bees are pretty hot. We'll see how things go this evening.

Finally tally from 1 deep hive with 26 queen cells:

4 medium nucs [2 10-frame boxes split with follower board down the middle, entrances on each side.
1 deep nuc in one of those white plastic nuc boxes.
1 deep nuc in the original hive, reduced to a 5 frame space with a follower board.

As always, it was a learning experience. I figure that if one box makes it through the winter, then I haven't lost anything.

cao · July 12, 2015, 02:03:51 PM

Quote from: Rurification on July 12, 2015, 01:44:12 PM
As always, it was a learning experience. I figure that if one box makes it through the winter, then I haven't lost anything.

and if they all make it, someone will be busy in the workshop building boxes.

Rurification · July 24, 2015, 03:38:25 PM

Went in the splits to check them [day 24 from when the queen cells were likely laid, according to Mike Bush's bee math] and found 4 of the six nucs robbed out. And quietly, too, I might add, as I had been keeping a careful eye on them. Queen cells ripped to shreds, honey gone, a few lingerers deep in the honey cells cleaning up.

Lesson #1: I can't do nucs unless I use robber screens, even during a flow.

The split in the mother hive was seriously overflowing with bees [10 frame box] and I have to wonder if the 'robbed out' nucs simply absconded and went back home. I did not see queen, eggs or brood in the mother hive. So, I put a frame of tiny brood and eggs in.

The last nuc had a couple of frames full of bees and they were festooning on an undrawn frame. I did not see queen, eggs or brood. Since I didn't want to steal more brood yet from my big hive, I let these guys be until I posted here. As a modified robber screen, I put a rolled up towel across the front with barely enough space for them to crawl along the front and out the opposite edge. It was all I could do at the time.

My question is: If June 29th was the date the queen eggs were laid, then is it too early to call the new queens a fail? When should I check again?

If I wait a week and check again and see nothing, then I should add another frame of eggs/larvae to the mother hive, right? - or if I see queen cells just let them alone to do their thing and check again in 3 or 4 weeks.

sc-bee · July 24, 2015, 05:34:23 PM

>If I wait a week and check again and see nothing, then I should add another frame of eggs/larvae to the mother hive, right? - or if I see queen cells just let them alone to do their thing and check again in 3 or 4 weeks.

You added a frame of eggs and brood as a queen test correct. If no cells started in about 4 days after adding viable eggs and larvae then probably a new queen present. Cells started no queen.

iddee · July 24, 2015, 05:56:12 PM

You should not rule out a new queen until 36 days after the egg was laid. Give them more time.

Rurification · July 24, 2015, 07:04:24 PM

Quote from: sc-bee on July 24, 2015, 05:34:23 PM
You added a frame of eggs and brood as a queen test correct. If no cells started in about 4 days after adding viable eggs and larvae then probably a new queen present. Cells started no queen.

sc-bee - Thanks for that. I do so many things wrong still that it's nice to know when my intuition was a good one. I figured if there was no queen, then they could start one and if there was, then the brood wouldn't hurt.

And iddee - Thanks for the 36 days mark. I didn't want to go back in any sooner than I needed to and this gives me a few days to relax.

Rurification · August 06, 2015, 03:16:51 PM

Update: 5 of the nucs failed. The mother hive is going gangbusters. I think most absconded and went back to the mother hive. All of the queen cells were ripped open. The honey was robbed out by the mother hive and stored in a medium I had set atop the mother hive that was divided from it by an inner cover. Weird. One of the little nucs had a couple of frames full of bees, but after the 36 days there was no queen, no eggs and no stores. They were festooning, but not drawing and a lot of bees were butt-up in the cells trying to lick them dry. So I combined them back with the mother hive via a newspaper combine. Worked fine.

The queen in the mother hive is fabulous. Brood from stem to stern and the bees were actually drawing. Miraculously, we are still in a flow this year and usually have a good fall flow as well, so I hope to see a full box of brood and a full box of honey, too, by October.

Note: This hive was a package from Kelley Bee this year, with a Russian queen I paid extra for. Not worth the money.

I have just read Michael Palmer's method for over-wintering nucs and I'm wondering if I would have had better success if I had put the nucs in a yard away from the mother hive - and wondering how far away that yard would have needed to be. We have 40 acres and I have a few areas around the buildings I could put hives. Just makes me wonder what I could have done differently. Hindsight being 20/20 and all.

[Michael Palmer nuc link posted by Eric Bosworth in another thread. Thank you!! Link here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?189642-Wintering-Nucs&highlight=nucleus+colonies]

sc-bee · August 06, 2015, 09:18:40 PM

I have tough luck with splits in the same yard. Even when I shake extra bees. So I haul them away to another yard few miles away. IMHO yes it does make a difference. But that is just me. Plenty folks split in same yard and have success but split has to be strong enough to allow for drifting. Did you close the entrances to a small size?

Eric Bosworth · August 06, 2015, 09:49:59 PM

There are 2 approaches to moving splits. Either move the new colonies or the old. If you are making nucs it might be better to move the original to a new location. Depending on where you want everything when you are done. Right now I seem to have a robbing problem with one nucs that I might move at least temporarily to my parents.

Rurification · August 07, 2015, 08:41:33 AM

At least my instincts seem to be OK on this, so that's progress. Yes, I did reduce to a small entrance. In the future I will immediately put on a robber screen as well.