Shakeout - herding bees

Duane · July 19, 2016, 07:41:25 PM

As posted on another thread, I had suspected laying workers. It was an attempted split early spring and they still hadn't raised a queen, refused to make a queen and was raising drones. I had added eggs three times. Another hive had queen cells so I added one and they tore it down. There looked like multiple eggs in haphazard directions in the cells. Now that it was past the honey flow, and the parent hive was not looking all that well, and reading about others who had no luck at times, I was tired of messing with them and did a shakeout.

I was expecting them to go to either the parent hive which was close by or other hives. They reformed a cluster in the vertical hole of the concrete block where their hive used to be. Towards evening, the cluster was still on the block and I felt sorry for them so put a box there. Some flew in and out, but two days later they were still there on the block. Just a couple handfuls (maybe three) of bees. There may be a little less than right after I shook them out. Every once in awhile I see a bee fly into the block hole and do a waggle dance.

So I try to put them in a hive. Of course the concrete block is in the dirt so to pick it up would pull up a hunk of dirt. So I try to scoop them out carefully. I put them in a box and some fly in and out, but then mostly flying out and re-clustering back in the hole. So the next day I think of placing a little section of brood in a frame over the top. Immediately they showed interest. However, a few hours later they were gone

I'd like to learn from this. Think there was a queen there or just laying workers they thought were queens and I should be happy they are gone? None clustered where I shook them out. Should I have put an empty box at the original location or if laying workers flew back in, I wouldn't have solved anything. Or should I have put another hive at that location and let them keep the laying workers out?

Trying to force the bees into the box didn't seem to work, especially since I couldn't get most out of the block. I thought the brood should have done the trick, but it appears they only cleaned up the smashed brood and then left. How does one get them into a box if you can shake the object and don't have a bee vac, any tricks? Oh, and I tried putting a few drops of imitation almond flavoring on a paper towel over them but no effect.

I guess I didn't expect them to cluster at the hive location. What happens when other people do a shakeout?

gww · July 19, 2016, 09:30:21 PM

I have never done a shake out or had bees till now. I have read that they cluster and eventually spread to other hives and also that some hardheaded ones might just hang around till they die.

Most seem to think you are not losing much because of the amount of time that went by for them to get a laying worker puts them close to death when you shake them anyway.

Lots smarter poeple then me on here though.
gww

Acebird · July 20, 2016, 09:08:40 AM

You should look at the strength of the other hives you have and reduce the entrances if the hives are small or in development then dump the laying worker hive at least 20 ft away. When you noticed the cluster in the block you should have moved the block 20 ft away but not to the dumping site. And then say Amen. That is how it is done.

Duane · July 20, 2016, 09:56:52 AM

So what I'm hearing is, to say good riddance and not worry about them. Guess I didn't understand that. It was hard for me to just think they slowly starve to death. Guess if I shook up the cluster again, most would disperse somewhere.

Just when I thought I realized what I didn't know, I find out there's a lot more I don't know!

I went out a few hours later to be sad they had left and there were bees on the front and going in and out the entrance. I'm guessing they are the same because several go into the hole in the block like that's where they were used to. I checked this morning and they are busy little bees while the other hives are just hanging out at the entrance.

I'm confused and trying to figure out what happened. I try to think maybe I only imagined they were gone, but I remember picking up the frame, opening the box, and not a bee in sight. Some odd unlikely thoughts I had was they had to re-cluster in a tree in order to move a few inches to the entrance. Or they picked a new spot over my hive and when they got there the girls said, we like the other place better.

While this may be a lost cause, I don't see any harm in watching what happens. Maybe they'll draw out some comb and gather some honey for the other hive. Any thoughts or experience in why they were gone for a few hours and now back?

little john · July 20, 2016, 10:22:50 AM

Quote from: Duane on July 19, 2016, 07:41:25 PM
Trying to force the bees into the box didn't seem to work, especially since I couldn't get most out of the block. I thought the brood should have done the trick, but it appears they only cleaned up the smashed brood and then left. How does one get them into a box if you can shake the object and don't have a bee vac, any tricks? Oh, and I tried putting a few drops of imitation almond flavoring on a paper towel over them but no effect.

I guess I didn't expect them to cluster at the hive location. What happens when other people do a shakeout?

Much depends on why you're doing a shake-out.

If we take a simple case of finding an elusive queen, (say) to squish her - then I'd either use a Marburg Box or two boxes with a Q/X between them, and a frame or two of brood (without bees) in the lower box. I'd place these boxes onto a sheet (or tarpaulin) on the ground in front of the subject hive, and place a short inclined plank from the sheet to the hive entrance. I like to continue the sheet up the plank, so that there's a continuous path from the sheet on the ground to the hive entrance.

Having found and dealt with the queen, you'll now have a couple of boxes with bees hanging off every surface, and quite a few flying around as well ...

Take each box and hold over the hive and give the bottom a good thump to dislodge the bees. There'll always be a few hangers-on - ignore those. Then place the boxes on the sheet and walk away. You can always ignore the 'box thump' procedure if you're feeling lazy. But - you must ensure that the brood combs are placed back in the hive.

At this point the bees have nothing to attract and thus keep them in or on the boxes, and they'll eventually walk up the sheet and into the hive. It's a great thing to watch. If I'm in a hurry, then I might help things along a bit by taking a scoop and gently shovelling-up a few cupfuls of bees off the sheet and shakng them directly into the hive - but ultimately, they'll walk up and enter the hive of their own accord.

But you can never force them to go in - if you try it'll just be like herding cats.

LJ

Duane · August 05, 2016, 03:13:21 PM

I was hoping for someone to give a thought about why they left and then came back.

I don't know why I'm worried about them. Not a lot of bees left. No eggs so it doesn't look like I jumped the gun. I went to cut a strip of eggs out of another box and when I went to put them in, I noticed a queen cell. It wasn't capped and I couldn't see anything in it. It's been a couple of weeks so don't know what that means. Anyway, with the shakeout and time, it looks like they're maybe ready for a queen. Since I should have given up on them anyway, I thought it'd be interesting to see what they do with more eggs. Now they have a small box, maybe it'll work out for them. I fed them some sugar water, but don't want to invest more until seeing eggs. They did fix the cut out comb in the two mini-frames nicely so if they die, I could put them in the big box and if nothing else, be ready to try again next spring.

Duane · August 15, 2016, 07:31:00 PM

The sorry saga ends. I placed a strip of eggs in a couple of more times. They seemed to destroy the eggs in just a few days, nothing is in the cells. Then I see new eggs. However, multiple eggs, and on the sides. Could be a young queen, but probably not. Not sure why there was a queen cell before. I put another strip of eggs in, figuring it won't help, now. Then a couple of days later, I had decided to do a shakeout again, and cut some other brood and put it in the same location. This was so I could do a split, perhaps. They're all GONE! Not a bee in the box. A couple of the capped brood from the strip I placed in there was still capped, and some starting to be eaten by ants. Seems odd that they would just up and leave, after starting to lay eggs. I wonder if this was a small scale of what happens to some hives on a large scale? Conditions get too bad and they just decide to leave? Wonder what happened to them, where they went. Or there was indeed a queen and they left for better pastures?

Not sure what I learned from doing all this, but it was interesting, and maybe I learned that at some point, it's not worth the effort. And maybe learned some skills.

Duane · August 18, 2016, 07:26:19 PM

They're back! And they brought friends, with about 3 to 4 times the amount hanging on the outside. So it looks like some other bees were looking for a place and decided this little box was juuuust right, at the size of half frame about 10 inches deep. I had took the two combs out and placed in the freezer, so wish that was in there now. How soon until I can disturb them? When I saw some bees early morning, I took a small piece of old brood and wedged in the bottom of an empty frame. But I'm worried they will build crosswise.

divemaster1963 · August 18, 2016, 09:32:25 PM

If they have qween I would let them buid and start laying. If you can put frame or two in OK. If not just wait and do a neat cutout into rubber band frames.

Just my way others may have better ideas. I have a swarm that moved into a hive with you only half no. Frames in box. Then I broke my shoulder. I'm just letting them go and fix it in the spring.

John

KeyLargoBees · August 19, 2016, 08:57:10 AM

Its most likely not a queen.....laying workers are a pain in the arse and yes they will cluster post dump and there really is no way to break them of the habit...I would be willing to bet cash money you go through this all over again and when they cap those cells they will be bullet drones and no worker cells.

Duane · August 19, 2016, 02:43:20 PM

Closer inspection shows this is a swarm clustering on the roof overhang. No bees inside. I see several doing a little dance in circles. I placed the old comb inside, and tried to put the bees inside, but they came out and joined the others. It's not like in the videos where you put the box next to the swarm and they march right in. These are on the box! I placed a bigger box next to them and another box further away. Not sure what I can do. I could lock them up, or find the queen and cage her.

Duane · August 19, 2016, 07:39:18 PM

Bees are so interesting!

I placed two mediums underneath the mini-box thinking maybe they'll see the entrance and all walk in. Some looked at it, but those scouts kept doing their little dance. I rubbed some lemongrass oil on the entrance, but I'm thinking it just doesn't work the way I imagined. Totally ignored.

Then I notice some bees acting like they were hyperactive. I would call them "popcorn" bees. They act like they have corn popping inside them. They're bouncing this way and that, running, and then the ones they hit start moving around. I realize this was what I had read from Huber material in action. Pretty soon, I saw more and more bees in the air. So long, bees. Oh well. They say a swarm in May is worth a load of hay, a swarm in June is worth a silver spoon, and a swarm in July, let them fly. So what about one towards the end of August?

I was setting close and when I saw them starting to go to the air, I got up getting ready to see where they went. I expected they would pretty much in a bee line mass go to the new home and was planning on following as much as I could. They kept circling the hive area for several minutes. Then I noticed they were starting to get further away but not very fast. I had seen swarms before just move pretty quick through the air. Then I got to thinking, maybe the lemongrass was confusing them. Ahhh! I happened to have a bottle right in my hands. So I took the cap off and I noticed a bee or two flew towards me. Hmmm. Maybe the lemongrass is interfering with the queen scent and, in this instance, only played a role while in flight.

I started blowing across the top of the container, and I imagined they started moving back towards the box. Then I was sure they were. I wiped more on the box, blew off and on across the top whenever it looked like they were straying. Pretty soon, some started landing on the side of the box! Then I saw they were scenting with their rears so I sat back down to watch. Several went to the hole in the concrete block and were scenting there. Something about that hole.

It appeared they were starting to go in the bigger box. So I started looking to see if I could see the queen. I did! It was a little disappointing as I thought they would be all clustered around her. But they pretty much ignored her. I was sure it was her, she walked up towards the entrance, but lots of bees there so never saw her go in. Then I saw the popcorn bees back at it. I thought oh no. I saw the queen traverse back towards the side of the box. Sting or no sting, I was going to try it. So I reached in and gently caught her. I thought, that was easy. But several more were in my hand and I knew if I closed on them and they stung me, I couldn't help jerking my hand open. So trying to get around them, the queen flew out. Sad, but expected her to land on the box again. By then the popcorn bees were in full agitation and things were breaking up. I wondered how many times the lemongrass will work again. I kept looking for the queen and saw her go under a cluster of bees. I figured when things thinned out, I might get another chance. Sure enough, I did and got her! I brought her inside the house, placed her in a jar with holes in the lid and went back out. By then no bees were on the side of the box and were quite dispersed in the air. I chose to put the jar in the mini-box. Some bees went in the box, some went out, some on the sides. Then I noticed the box nearby were fending off bees. If they left from my box, would they forget their own that quick? I noticed another box further away was fighting a little.

Not sure what to do at this point. Not so many bees now. Some still doing the dance. Even some popcorn bees trying to get the others excited.

I just find all this absolutely fascinating! I was doing this without a veil or gloves. Bees landed on me and I had no fear. I was right in the midst of the flying swarm when I caught the queen. And I do think I learned a thing or two, today. Does anyone think the lemongrass oil interfered with their swarming?

Acebird · August 19, 2016, 09:11:32 PM

Quote from: Duane on August 19, 2016, 07:39:18 PM
So what about one towards the end of August?

You will go bust.