Split Question

[Bush_84]

Hello all. This spring I plan on queen rearing. I am using the Joseph Clemens system, which involves a nuc as the starter/finisher. To start nuc I have purchased a queen which is coming in mid may. I plan on taking frames from two hives and bees from the third. Once it builds up to the appropriate strength I will take the queen out and make another nuc. Here is where I am struggling with what to do. I want to keep the nuc strong for queen rearing, but give the new nuc enough resources to thrive. I was thinking about taking frames of nurse bees from my main hives again but would they kill the queen from the nuc?  I suppose the other option would be to cage the queen but I have never done that before. I am hesitant to do so when I don't have the resources to replace her if she is injured. I was thinking that another option would be to grow the nuc into two boxes and split that. That way I could still make a small nuc and force the rest of the bees into one nuc. Suggestions?

[chux]

How many hives are you trying to end up with? Sounds like you want four. Two current and two new. Why not split both current hives, taking the queen, brood, and stores. Let the parent colony raise a new queen. Then you have four hives.

[cao]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I thought that the Joseph Clemens system uses a queenless nuc as a starter/finisher.  They just add a frame of brood each week to keep it strong and going. 

I was thinking about taking frames of nurse bees from my main hives again but would they kill the queen from the nuc?

Adding nurse bees shouldn't pose a problem to the queen.  I've added frames with bees to nucs and weak hives to help them out and haven't had a problem.

[Bush_84]

What I would like to do is get into queen rearing and make a splits without drastically reducing my honey harvest. All of the splits I would make this year would be made into nucs. I already have three strong hives and have two packages ordered. If all goes well this will be the last time I have to buy packages. So once may arrives I'll have three overwintered colonies, two packages installed, and one nuc. From there I should be able to take minimal resources from my main hives and manage to get another nuc/mating nuc and still not ruin my honey harvest. I have no reservations overwintering nucs or even mini mating nucs grown out into an 8 frame unit. So my goal this year is to grow my overall colony count and read my own queens. I think I can do that without ruining my honey harvest 

So ultimately that brings me back to what to do with that queen from the original nuc?  My gut tells me to grow out the nuc to two boxes, take out three frames, and compress the rest into one box.

[Bush_84]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I thought that the Joseph Clemens system uses a queenless nuc as a starter/finisher.  They just add a frame of brood each week to keep it strong and going. 

I was thinking about taking frames of nurse bees from my main hives again but would they kill the queen from the nuc?

Adding nurse bees shouldn't pose a problem to the queen.  I've added frames with bees to nucs and weak hives to help them out and haven't had a problem.

Ya I'm modifying it slightly. I feel that it'd take a lot of resources away from my production hives to put together a starter/finisher that large. I figure I can start with a standard nuc and let them fill it out and take the queen out and it won't significantly change the overall design drastically. 

[Acebird]

There are a few problems with strong hives.  They get your hopes up and could die in the Spring, they could swarm or peter out or just limp along the following season.  Last years success does not guarantee this years success.

[cao]

Have you read this?

http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/

I found it pretty straight forward and easy to follow.

[sc-bee]

Sorry, but I am confused...???

[Bush_84]

Have you read this?

http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/

I found it pretty straight forward and easy to follow.

That is what I am going to be doing. My question still just boils down to the best way to split a nuc without weakening it as I want to raise queens in said nuc. The rest is just background info about what I plan to do so everybody gets the what I am doing and why. Unless somebody thinks otherwise it seems to me that growing the nuc out into two boxes, removing queen with a few frames, and condensing the rest of the bees into one nuc is the best way to go.

[Acebird]

My question still just boils down to the best way to split a nuc without weakening it as I want to raise queens in said nuc.

It is impossible to split without making the (whole) weaker.  You are robbing resources.  It is just a matter of degree.  The weakest split you can make is one that you add a mated queen to and feed.  The strongest split you can make is an even divide and add a queen to the queenless side.  And then there is everything in between these two extremes.  But the idea of splitting without making the colony before you split weaker is impossible.

[Bush_84]

My question still just boils down to the best way to split a nuc without weakening it as I want to raise queens in said nuc.

It is impossible to split without making the (whole) weaker.  You are robbing resources.  It is just a matter of degree.  The weakest split you can make is one that you add a mated queen to and feed.  The strongest split you can make is an even divide and add a queen to the queenless side.  And then there is everything in between these two extremes.  But the idea of splitting without making the colony before you split weaker is impossible.

Unless I take a two story five frame nuc, remove the weeknight with 2-3 frames and condense the rest into a single story nuc. Strength is not measured in number of frames but quantity of bees per space. If I were even to simply just take one of the boxes away along with the queen you could argue that nothing is drastically lost as the remaining box still has the same quantity of bees as it did before. However if I don't take all the bees away from the second story and cram the rest into a single five frame nuc I am inherently increasing their density and that's what's really important from what I understand of queen rearing. If I am able to leave ink capped brood I improve things even that much more.

[Acebird]

Strength is not measured in number of frames but quantity of bees per space.

Are you trying to say that 6000 bees in a 5 frame box is a stronger colony then 50000 bees in 50 frame hive?  I don't think density means anything except the urge to swarm.

[Bush_84]

Let me answer your question with another question. If you were raising queens would you want a five frame nuc with more bees per frame than a two story 10 frame with less bees per frame?  Now if my aim for this particular hive was to harvest honey then I wouldn't consider it particularly strong for that purpose, however with queen rearing it seems to me that you want your hive overflowing. Not simply a bunch of frames.

[Acebird]

Yes I agree that just adding frames doesn't buy you anything but a 10 frame overflowing is better than a 5 frame overflowing.

[BeeMaster2]

Bush,
What you are saying is correct, for queen rearing, you want a hive that is busting at the seems and well fed. Because it is queen less. you get away with it being packed so tight and you get well fed queens if you have enough young bees and enough food.
Jim

[Bush_84]

One should also keep in mind that I am not trying to rear a ton of queens. I just want a few for my own apiary. If I were commercial and making money on selling queens I'd be doing this differently.