Is this a laying worker hive?

[FlexMedia.tv]

I'm reading up on laying workers and I think I have one, if someone can verify. I only think this because the cells look messy like my wife's shoe closet. *grin!*

My one hive is neat with one egg in each cell. The other has different size larvae, 2-3 eggs in a cell, eggs on top of larvae, etc. If this is normal, ok but if it's not, does it hurt anything and is there a remedy?
Thanks,
Art

Normal eggs?


Worker eggs?


Hard to see but looks like multiple eggs in one cell


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[Barhopper]

How old is the queen?

[eltalia]

Those domed cappings in that pattern in that place certainly do not
bode well, FM.tv.
That first pix..?.. is showing partially drawn cells on new black foundation?
If so, definitely LW action happening.

To fix LW I have mine own method and there is another floating around
that should work, reportedly works, and then there is Michael's resource
insertion method. But coming into the winter..?.. I reckon the way forward
may well bee to freeze those brood then have a colony clean the surplus
out as their stores.
The bees are toast for the same reason, sadly.
Your call, it being how many weeks to foraging ceasing.

I lay out my method below, as in prime time with queens well available
locally it may be worth a shot if the colony has loads of stores beyond the
practical of keeping for next Spring.

Cheers.

Bill
__________________________________________________________
[from archives]
It's all about pheromones or better yet the bee's perspective of pheromone
presence.
Here is how you go about a rescue now.
#Obtain a proven laying queen along with a handfull of attendants.
Sufficient numbers would be supplied with a purchased queen, ask for
more if available.
# Using the existing brood box select one drawn frame with honey and pollen stores. Remove all eggs/larvae in cells on that frame.
# Close the entrance in two parts. The first external to frame position #1, use a fine stainless steel mesh, mosquito grade.
The second to fill the remainder of the entrance to frame position #8, use ply or a light timber moulding.
# Into an empty sealable box shake all bees. Place lid and set box on ground in front of hive.
# Place the selected frame into the brood chamber at position #1 and fit a premade 2mm ply carboard divider [1]
# Add queen and attendants to the frame.
# Place a feeder of type into the void beyond the divider.
# Place lid on hive.
# Remove lid on box of bees and place a ramp to landing board of hive.
At this time it is a choice to do nothing more or begin a march into the hive with applicable smoke.
# Check the feeder after two days and refill if required.
# On the fourth day confirm the divider has been penetrated.
# On the sixth day remove the divider and reposition the frame to
position #5 and add back the original frames.
#6 Remove entrance screen and closure and add queen restrictor to the entrance.
#7 After nine days inspect all brood frames and remove any queen cell/cups found. If adding back honey supers at this time install a queen excluder above the brood chamber.



[1] For a colony low on numbers tweak the divider using
a penetration maybe 10"L x 2" H covering this with newspaper
two pages thick and as close to the bottom board as your cardboard strength will allow (~ 1/ 4"?).

Your existing bees will get over themselves with nought else to do but chew paper in getting to the new queen and keep themselves alive by foraging and doing hive cooling . Those workers intent on laying will soon change attitude through lack of opportunity and age .
Within maybe five days your new queen will be laying and the bees will be through the paper and doing their normal bee things on the frame. You can then add your previous frames back , removing the divider, the bees will clean them up.

[BeeMaster2]

I disagree, the first picture has perfectly layer eggs in freshly drawn comb. The bees will draw the comb out as the egg develops. The eggs in the other 2 pictures are placed in the bottom of the cells. Laying workers lay the eggs on the sides of the cell. They do this because their a abdomen's are not long enough to reach the bottom of the cell.
It does look like some have several eggs. This is a sign of a new queen. She will learn to only lay one
egg in each cell. It also looks like there is some mite poopin some of those cells.
Jim

[eltalia]

"I disagree, the first picture has perfectly layer eggs in freshly drawn comb"

... and why one needs to know if it is fully drawn or partially, Jim.
When just 15mm or less LWs would have no difficulty with a copybook lay
whereas struggle with fully drawn in random placements as seen in other
pix. Fresh eggs on larvae is another indicator but yes, a queen on steroids or
0D'd on hormone could be quilty of such activity.
I'll wait for a fuller picture, on this one :-)

Cheers


Bill

[sc-bee]

... and why one needs to know if it is fully drawn or partially, Jim.
When just 15mm or less LWs would have no difficulty with a copybook lay
whereas struggle with fully drawn in random placements as seen

Cheers


Bill

Dang it hurts me to agree with you  .... but agreed 

Cheers

[FlexMedia.tv]

How old is the queen?

Barhopper,
I have 4 Hives, one is a captured swarm. Those pictures are my package Bee's started this year in May

[FlexMedia.tv]

"I lay out my method below, as in prime time with queens well available
locally it may be worth a shot if the colony has loads of stores beyond the
practical of keeping for next Spring."

Geeze Bill, sounds like a lot of work! Lol!

[FlexMedia.tv]

These are additional pictures from the first picture with the black frames. They are a little difficult to see. This queen was from a package in May. I looked for a queen during the last inspection but I couldn't find one.








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[little john]

I think what would be really useful, would be a photo taken at an angle, such that domed cappings would become more evident - as high-domed worker-cells then become a no-brainer - if this could be done ?

In the last 2 photos there are very clearly a fair number of normal capped worker-cells, so - assuming that those were laid by the same resident queen, and not imported frames - I'd say those earlier multi-egg cells were just a new queen getting used to the hang of things.
LJ

[eltalia]

"I lay out my method below, as in prime time with queens well available
locally it may be worth a shot if the colony has loads of stores beyond the
practical of keeping for next Spring."

Geeze Bill, sounds like a lot of work! Lol!

Sure reads that way, necessary for the detail to illustrate the concept I 'm afraid :-)
The other method mentioned uses a double screened shim between a queenright box
and the LW box. So the shim plus resources required and takes around two weeks, by report.
Michael's method uses resources until the LWs get the message. So uses resources and a
nonquantifiable amount of time after the initial 20days or so.
Mine - not mine really, it was passed to me many moons ago - mine needs kit and a newly
sourced queen with a frame - or two, optional - and is a done deal inside of 10 days tops.

But we are jumping ahead :-)
Seems there are assessments at odds thusfar so, two things?
If it is agreed the lay pattern in those partially drawn cells is perfect then why the anomally
- from the same queen - on the same foundation where it is fully drawn. You cannot upload
pix of every frame so take what has been put so far (by all) and see if you yourself can identify
any set pattern of madness.... or prolific double and triple lays on a number of frames.

With the pix?
It is difficult to easily provide high.def images on this BMA site with that 200KB limit, I know
that much. So for LJ's request - and maybe a selection of what has been uploaded - are you
able to upload elsewhere and post links? That would solve the resolution troubles I am having
and I guess others also.  About all I can suggest beyond what you have done.


Cheers.


Bill

[eltalia]

... and why one needs to know if it is fully drawn or partially, Jim.
When just 15mm or less LWs would have no difficulty with a copybook lay
whereas struggle with fully drawn in random placements as seen

Cheers


Bill

Cheerio...

Bill

Dang it hurts me to agree with you  .... but agreed 

Cheers

... an so cometh the moth to the flame ;-))))

Cheerio...

Bill

[FlexMedia.tv]

I think what would be really useful, would be a photo taken at an angle, such that domed cappings would become more evident - as high-domed worker-cells then become a no-brainer - if this could be done ?

Little John,
I'll try to send better pics. I know it is hard to see but those first pics are two different hives. The black framed one I thought was normal. The last 3 pics are all from that hive and no transfers. That hive is only one brood box and I just decided to add a super even tho all the frames are not drawn yet. I'll post more but all the pics of the black frames come from the same hive...still think it's a new queen trying to figure things out?? :-)

[FlexMedia.tv]

Some more pictures from the black frame hive:


The closest I could show with domed caps. What does that mean again?


Outside frame of this single brood box hive


Same area just closer. Sure wish I knew what these gals are doing!


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[eltalia]

Some more pictures from ...
(edit)

"My one hive is neat with one egg in each cell. The other has different
size larvae, 2-3 eggs in a cell, eggs on top of larvae, etc."

I did read this as you knew what "normal" egg lay looked like. I did not
realise you were putting up pix from two separate colonies.
I see that now.

"Same area just closer. Sure wish I knew what these gals are doing!"

Well, they are not drawing comb, so likely no real growth happening.
If this is the same colony as your first pix I would just leave them bee,
and observe weekly.
The other pix from the other colony..?.. with multlple random lays.
What I put previously stands.. cut your losses.
Sorry for that news but there are many more seasons in front of your
bees.. and they lack a process for forgiveness. They just move on, regardless.

Cheers.

Bill

[FlexMedia.tv]

Bill,
Yup, the last three pics are from the first pics, the black frames, Queen Victoria. (God save her!) her story is she is a package queen started in May of this year. She gave me trouble from the start. I placed her in her box in the hive and checked on her like I was supposed to a few days later and she wasn't released. After a week she still wasn't released and all the helpers in her box died. So I removed the candy cork and let her crawl in. I had an old frame of honey from last year I placed at the farthest corner of the hive. For weeks that's where they gathered. Just there on that one frame and NOWHERE else. I placed a top feeder in the middle and they ate a bit but still gathered on that far frame. I moved that frame to the middle under the feeder. They did better. All of a sudden they started doing good where they are now. It's only one brood box and in sure there were no queen cells. It's doing so well now I added a super. Now, the hive next to it (Queen Angela)that was my first captured swarm was huge now is doing so bad I didn't take pictures of it. If I wasn't brand new at this, I swear the swarm queen left that hive and took over Queen Victoria's hive. Don't even know if that's possible but Queen Victoria is doing so much better and Queen Angela is doing nothing. Anyway, don't y'all just love new keepers?? I'll leave Victoria alone and concentrate on the other from the photos, Queen Nefertiti who is a mess right now. Hey, maybe I should combine Victoria with Angela since I'm sure there is no queen at the Angela hive?

[eltalia]

Leave me time to get back to you, FM.tv.
There is new info in that last post I'll need to digest,
and a busy day in front of me, here.

Cheers.

Bill

[eltalia]

Getting back to you on this FM.tv, I have I think managed to unravel
the dialogue with some help from your website.
I lay out a path forward as a skeleton direction without explanation/justification.
Others might want to go there as I have had to map it all out as a problem
matrix so repeating that here is more work than I am able to do.
As a general comment I really am convinced you do need to revisit
assessments of numbers of bees as "a lot"/"plenty"/"mobs".
One thousand bees in a nucleus is not "plenty" nor indeed a preferable starting
point for any colony in your "zone", twice that number over 3 frames - and no
more - and you miight have half a chance in getting a "hive" going.
Briefly, I am at odds with many of my peers in their statements as to what
constitutes "critical mass". I do not concern myself with that 'problem' as
"each to their own" applies - and I know historically colonys I declare vibrant,
are, and own frames wholly covered in bees where they are not building comb or
storing honey. 
Also I see no problem in having even a few pounds of bees hanging off an entrance
board IF the group waxes and wanes in a single fine day. In fact during full on flows
I would expect to see this in a healthy colony.Yet others believe such events are
triggers for a split to be made. Harmful to Critical Mass in my view.

On with it;
Queen Victoria needs to be restructured to build for wintering. Reduce the structure
back to a single fulldepth box and force them to draw ALL comb.
To do that?
Over a couple of manipulations bring the outside undrawn into the core of
brood frames, stagger the undrawn between fully drawn with brood. Pay no
regard to the state of stores and comb on these transient outside frames, the
bees will move stuff as they draw them out for brood.
Get that done by fall's end to begin wintering with fully drawn - and hopefully
filled -  frames throughout Queen Victoria.

Queen Angela gets dismantled with all stores and bees going to Queen Nefertiti
which gets changed to a single full depth box. Make very sure Angela's queen is
not present or euthanised.
Follow the same process as layed out above for Victoria with maybe a tweak in a
few weeks in adding a medium back on top for wintering. The decision to add that
box is a local judgment call based on the chances of the extra box having time to
get stores into the drawn frames you supply. One suggestion is to not just throw
on the medium but add a few frames with a blocker in place. Add frames as those
in place get worked to capacity. That strategy should prove a faster fill than a box
of all drawn empty frames being thrown on. In all these moves make sure there are
queen restrictors fitted at the entrance, right through to wintering pack down.
Remove them then so any drones/detritus can be thrown out.


Cheers.


Bill

--
(edit content+structure)

[FlexMedia.tv]

Thanks Bill,
I went back up today to make sure Queen Angela is queen-less. I'll post some pictures in a bit but she started out as a captured hive and I bet she left the same way. I have bad old eyes but I use jewelers glasses and I can't find her, just a few caps and larvae. There are only 9 frames in a deep homemade hive. (Maybe that's the problem...don't like my condo I built for them!)only three frames have any activity since July 9th

[FlexMedia.tv]

Frame #2 (#1 is empty)


Cells from #2


Frame #3


Cells from #3


Last frame. Remaining are empty


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