Adding package bees to strengthen existing hive?

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

I need some advice here.  Can I add package bees, not the queen, just the package bees to a weak but queen right hive.

Hive history:  the queen vanished sometime during winter, I added a new mated queen March 20th, a treatment free (tf) queen that is important to me, excellent genetics, calm, good honey producer, mite eliminator.  The new queen has laid 5 deep frames, eggs and larva.  I also added a frame of capped brood this day for quick hatching nurse bees. Tonight the temp is to drop below freezing and I feel there are not enough workers to cover all the brood.  A side note this afternoon was 74F, but a northern is blowing in as I text, so as stated FREEZING TONIGHT.

Tomorrow morning at 6:30AM, I receive 2 packages of bees, with two queens.  Can I remove the queen and add just the one package of bees to the existing tf queen right hive after the temp warms up?

I should add the weak hive is a deep, 10 frame Lang with only 3 maybe 4 frames of worker bees.

Blessings

The other package will go into a completely different hive along with the supplied queen.

[eltalia]

Quick answer is No, not without a good deal of risk.
Buuut I think you answer the question yourself in your report
on temps... like IF no damage overnight tonight then it isn't going to
happen.
Sooooo.. to be sure for the nights ahead pack the void adjacent those
frames with burlap, cardboard+paper.. anything to remove that space
bees struggle to control heat loss within. Lucks m8 ;-))

Bill

[beepro]

You want a tight space hive so that the bees can retain the heat during the
night.  But definitely not adding the package bees because some older bees might
balled this queen.  Bees are known to be hostile toward the queen that they do not
like.  Like Bill said, it is too risky.  I would let the package bees settle down with
their queen from the cage.  Then rob young nurse bees from the package hives for this valued queen.  Since it is still cold you still have time through the summer to grow this hive and make queens from her.  For now a tight hive space will do so don't give too many frame of broods that they cannot take care.  I rather have more young nurse bees than cap broods to keep her going for now.

[little john]

Hi Van - I wouldn't add bees either for a 'quick fix' - too many unknowns involved with doing that.  Suggest:

1) reduce the box volume if necessary by 'dummying-down': either with a divider board, or put some kind of space-occupying box into the unoccupied area (I've used a suitably cut-down cardboard box covered in thick plastic sheet in the past, which worked ok).

2) close-off the Open Mesh Floor (SBB) if you happen to have one in place.

3) wrap insulation around the box if you have something suitable handy - with plenty on top.

4) the perfect solution - if you can cobble together some suitable gear in an hour or two today - is to install some kind of controlled heat source into the box.  There's a thread running on BeeSource at the moment where someone was in trouble, and I just had to 'poke my oar in' to help out ... LOL
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?343589-Filling-a-tob-bar-hive-in-the-cold

LJ

[iddee]

It would be much safer to swap places with the weak hive and a stronger hive. The foragers will return to the weak hive and boost it's numbers with less chance of fighting.

[Oldbeavo]

Polystyrene is a good space filler and good insulation.
Iddee's solution is the least risk

[Acebird]

The new queen has laid 5 deep frames, eggs and larva.

Why can't he add nurse bees from another hive?  It seems to me cramping down this hive will shut down the queen unless he pulls frames of eggs and larva and puts them in the packages.  If I was worried about the brood I would pull it.  A little competition for the new queens in the packages won't hurt.

[iddee]

He can, but it is safer, simpler, easier, and quicker to just switch locations on a strong hive and the weak one. Two minutes, without opening a hive, and all is well.

[little john]

The new queen has laid 5 deep frames, eggs and larva.

Why can't he add nurse bees from another hive?  It seems to me cramping down this hive will shut down the queen [...]

As I read Van's post - it's 'only' a temporary problem of sudden freezing overnight temperatures.  As soon as the weather improves, all will be back to normal - so any 'cramping down' will only be for a short time.

Adding nurse bees (or forager bees by swapping positions) from another hive will only serve to strengthen one hive at the expense of another.  This is a common mistake to make.  When faced with two colonies, one of which is weak - the best solution is always(*) to strengthen the stronger colony and not the weaker - then, when the stronger colony has it to spare, then that is the time to donate brood from the stronger to the weaker colony.  When considering optimal brood production, "size is everything."

(*) An exception to this protocol is when the weaker colony is in imminent danger of dying due to it having insufficient bees to maintain a cluster temperature adequate for it's survival.
LJ

[JackM]

Frankly I would do whatever I could to downsize the hive you are concerned about.  Insulate, insulate, but still leave opening.  Put some R-30 blanket around the hive and over the top.  Probably the easiest and least expensive choice.  By putting in package bees that are not on brood, you risk the issue of suicide, whereas if they were on brood they wouldn't do anything to the rest of the hive

[iddee]

""Adding nurse bees (or forager bees by swapping positions) from another hive will only serve to strengthen one hive at the expense of another.  This is a common mistake to make.  When faced with two colonies, one of which is weak - the best solution is always(*) to strengthen the stronger colony and not the weaker - then, when the stronger colony has it to spare, then that is the time to donate brood from the stronger to the weaker colony.  When considering optimal brood production, "size is everything."""

I have to disagree with you there, LJ. This time of year, reducing the stronger hive would either have little effect, or could prevent a swarm. It would also give both hives time build enough to work the flow heavily. At other times of the year, I may agree with you, other than ""always"". With bees, I have found it best to not utter that word, as they will prove you wrong 90% of the time

[eltalia]

It would be much safer to swap places with the weak hive and a stronger hive.
The foragers will return to the weak hive and boost it's numbers with less chance of fighting.

Wally...
I am reasonably sure Van is simply seeking assurance for what he is mulling
over, he is no newbee to any of this. I am thinking he merely seeks
professional input, as a backstop... if you like :-)

So, for others, can we expand on this move....?... assuming a strong colony
is at hand in the yard?
True it is this move carries the least amount of risk of direct harm and/or
setback in growth would you agree timing is relative to an even lesser risk?

I am suggesting doing the switch at that time of day orientation flights are
happening. The strong colony would have it's newest crop of foragers in
the air so when those returned to what they thought was the home they left
both they and the weaker colony's guards should mingle more easily.
Or would the pheromone on those new foragers be so strong as to cause
more of a problem?
As some feedback of my own experience there has always been some
degree of obvious rejection at the entrance when forced to do something
similar. But I don't recall ever looking inside within 24hours to see any
degree of rejection inside - like bodies on bottomboards.

Bill

[little john]

Well iddee - I did qualify the word 'always' ...

If this were my situation, and if I were hell bent on saving ALL the brood in the weak hive (and didn't have any means of supplying heat), then what I'd do is go into the weak hive, pull frames of brood and shake off all bees, then place those bee-less brood combs into a strong hive, where they stand a much better chance of being adequately covered - leaving only a few brood frames within the weaker hive which WILL be adequately covered by that colony.  I'd still 'dummy-down' etc.

Then, when the temperature crisis has passed, return those brood frames.  If - in the intervening period - a percentage of those bees have emerged - so what ? - they're alive and have swelled the population of the strong colony.  Not a problem - for in due course the stronger colony can then provide brood for the weaker.

But always(sic) keep the stronger hive of the two strong - Nature favours the strong - often at the expense of the weak.  The phenomenon of robbing in a dearth is perhaps the best example of this.
LJ

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Thanks for all the advice, Buddies.  I will not add package bees as expertly advised.  Now Wednesday morning and 31F.  I?m sure I lost some brood last night in this one weak hive.  I did reduce entrance to 3/4 inch and wrap hive, to cold to open hive to do anything such as reduce space.   This cold front came in quick, sweating yesterday mid day, 12 hours later,,,, below freezing.  Oh well that?s the weather, no complaints.

Anyway, I will save this hive, no questions there.  I have many other strong hives for resources after this cold spell heads back North.  Unseasonably cold in this neck of the woods, Arkansas.

Looks like it may be at least another week before warm, inspectionable temps (70F plus) returns.

This afternoon high 58F.  I will take my 2 packages and place in new hives with wax out combs and add a full frame of capped honey comb to each new hive.  I normally add brood to package bees to lock in the bees and prevent absconding but to cold for that.

Thanks again TO ALL for the excellent advise.
Blessings

[iddee]

Eltalia, all is relative. It would take a book to describe all the scenarios, but most of them will work.

LJ, you like to work more than I do. 

[eltalia]

Eltalia, all is relative. It would take a book to describe all the scenarios, but most of them
will work.

Indeed so Wally, with even further options around those available on an
apiary by apiary basis.
As Van now demonstrates in his choices.

LJ, you like to work more than I do. 

LJ luuuyrves it... his woodwork alone trumpets that passion :-)))

Bill

[Acebird]

If this were my situation, and if I were hell bent on saving ALL the brood in the weak hive (and didn't have any means of supplying heat), then what I'd do is go into the weak hive, pull frames of brood and shake off all bees, then place those bee-less brood combs into a strong hive, where they stand a much better chance of being adequately covered - leaving only a few brood frames within the weaker hive which WILL be adequately covered by that colony.

I see absolutely no difference if he puts the brood in a strong hive or the new packages he was getting.  A strong hive is a PITA to move just to get foragers.  The queen has already laid up 5 frames of brood and she can do it again in two days.  If Van wanted to add anything to the weak hive I say add honey.  What good are foragers if there is nothing to forage?

[tjc1]

I see absolutely no difference if he puts the brood in a strong hive or the new packages he was getting.  A strong hive is a PITA to move just to get foragers.  The queen has already laid up 5 frames of brood and she can do it again in two days.  If Van wanted to add anything to the weak hive I say add honey.  What good are foragers if there is nothing to forage?

Good point re the foragers - I suppose that the idea must be to provide extra bodies for heat production?

[Acebird]

the foragers - I suppose that the idea must be to provide extra bodies for heat production?

They are old bees they are going to die soon.

[iddee]

AND,       It is going to warm up soon.
                The capped brood is going to emerge soon.

The foragers will do the job at hand.