Feeding Pollen Substitute in Late Season

[AR Beekeeper]

It is incorrect to think that pollen is only used to feed brood.  The nurse age bees are the bees that eat the pollen, then they produce jelly to feed the brood and all other adult bees in the colony.  This is how the other adults get their required protein.  If the forage bees ask to be fed worker jelly, and they receive little, or with reduced protein, this is how foragers know it is time to increase pollen foraging.

[blackforest beekeeper]

Honest question:  i thought bees only used bee bread/pollen substitute to feed brood.  Am I mistaken?  If that is so, then what is accomplised by feeding pollen substitute when the queen is not laying?

My hives or not broodless, And I would like for the queen to lay long as possible. No pollen no new bees? More explanation in previous post to hops. Thanks Philip PS. Working and can't really go into depth as would like talk to you guys later.

Philip,
I always am happy when they lay a long time. BUT: Only if conditions are favorable and they maintain a somewhat "large" broodnest. If it is only a bit of breeding cause it`s rather chilly but they are fed with syrup and protein nevertheless, the winter-bees - in my thinking - work too much (with little effect). It would be better, they went into winter-rest and keep their heads down tills spring.

In all cases, it is best to have the bees fed up and set to go a while before winter sets in. Late-autumn-feeding or even winter-feeding causes too much stress to them, better spend putting their feet up.
And usually (I don`t know all places) they will have pollen under the honey/feed in the cells, getting at it as they consume it in spring.

[FlexMedia.tv]

I was told to not use the bee pollen substitute here in Michigan during winter because they could not digest it. I have the powder substitute that I don't know how to use. Am I supposed to use it in the Fall outside the hive? I'm using the patties in the hive now before I wrap them next week. I have fondant for the winter but I think this year there is plenty of honey in the bottom frames.
Art

[BeeMaster2]

It is incorrect to think that pollen is only used to feed brood.  The nurse age bees are the bees that eat the pollen, then they produce jelly to feed the brood and all other adult bees in the colony.  This is how the other adults get their required protein.  If the forage bees ask to be fed worker jelly, and they receive little, or with reduced protein, this is how foragers know it is time to increase pollen foraging.

AR,
Only the queen and larvae less than 6 days from being layed, are fed royal jelly. Bees feed drones and bees nectar. Older larvae are fed bee bread, a mixture of nectar and pollen. Nurse bees make wax without and pollen available.
Jim

[AR Beekeeper]

sawdst;  That is what once was believed, but more recent findings point to no pollen being fed to larvae, only jelly and honey.  The other adult bees, foragers and drones, receive jelly adjusted to their sex and age for their protein requirements.  The sharing of nectar or honey between adults is just for the carbs.  All pollen that is consumed is done by the nurse age bees.  They process it in their bodies and then distribute protein back to their nestmates.

[Ben Framed]

Thanks to each of y'all!!
Phillip

[iddee]

AR, if that be the case, where does the larva receive the substance that prohibits the development of ovaries and other developments that produces a worker rather than a queen? I have always been taught it is in the honey/pollen mix called bee bread, which was fed to the larva starting on day 6 from egg.
Links. please.

[Ben Framed]

AR, if that be the case, where does the larva receive the substance that prohibits the development of ovaries and other developments that produces a worker rather than a queen? I have always been taught it is in the honey/pollen mix called bee bread, which was fed to the larva starting on day 6 from egg.
Links. please.

iddee, I might be getting in over my head and not being able to swim but only so far from the shore without the air of a life jacket being this is my first year and being I am new here. 😊😁. Even still, I have a question.  Isn't the difference in the  development of the worker bee and the development of the queen, determined when the nurse bees choose, and feed, an excessive amount of royal jelly to the "new larvae" only days old and younger for a new queen? Isn't this the same royal jelly that is fed to the worker ? Just more of it? Which, in turn, enables the full  development the queen bee and makes the difference in weather the larvae becomes a worker or a fully developed, capable, virgin queen?
Thanks ,      Phillip

[AR Beekeeper]

Iddee;  All the larva requires for development is furnished by the nurse bee's glandular system.  The nurse bees feed the larva it's required food containing the nutrients and glandular secretions that cause it to proceed in it's development.  The nurse bees feed 3 types of jelly, Royal jelly, worker jelly, and drone jelly.  The proper jelly is given to the larva based on which caste it is to become and is adjusted for the larva's age.  The jelly's composition changes with each molt the larva undergoes.  The jelly is mixed with nectar or honey for the older larva, not with bee bread as once believed.  Now it is thought that only the nurse bees feed on the bee bread and do not feed it to the larva.

The larvae are all fed the same jelly for the first 24 to 48? hours, I can't remember for sure if the change is at 24 hours or not.  After this time the female larvae will receive the proper food based on the cell the larva is in, a worker cell gets worker jelly, a queen cell gets Royal Jelly.

I many studies that make statements based just on the one study, I would not consider the matter settled until other studies have produced the same results.  Things change rapidly now, it is impossible for a beekeeper to keep abrest of the new developments.  I comfort myself with the thought that it really doesn't matter what I think I know, the bees will do as they have always done.  I just plod along with the management techniques that have worked in the past.

You may want to look at Clarence Collisons video on YouTube "Honey bee glandular systems."
Also, here is Randy Oliver in a video "Apiculture New Zealand-Randy Oliver-Workshop 1," he talks about what bees in the colony use the pollen around minute 11.

[TheHoneyPump]

I have been told by a Master Beek that rule of thumb 2 frames bee bread and 6 frames of honey. I am going to sit back and learn.

Yes, this is the amount of stores you are looking for to be in the hive in very late fall just before tucking them in for the winter.  These are the stores that are ideally left after they have completed the winter bee brood cycle (broodless) and those emerged winter bees have fattened up as much as they can to be ready settle in for the winter huddle.  The bees store the pollen until late winter and spring.  They do not eat it over winter.  It is saved for the spring, the beginning of a new season, for next year's brood.  Those 2 frames of pollen are your next year's spring bees, in stored form.  Pollen in the frame is your charged up - spring bee battery -

Bang on @paus

The OP question also included question about beetles concern over winter.  Great question.  I still haven't seen an answer on that specifically here in this thread yet.

[TheHoneyPump]

I was told to not use the bee pollen substitute here in Michigan during winter because they could not digest it. I have the powder substitute that I don't know how to use. Am I supposed to use it in the Fall outside the hive? I'm using the patties in the hive now before I wrap them next week. I have fondant for the winter but I think this year there is plenty of honey in the bottom frames.
Art

The purpose of feeding substitute is, simply put, to make bees.  Pollen and substitutes are fed late summer and early fall to aid the colony in raising the last cycle of brood as healthy fat bees, fat bees that will last the winter.  Feeding the substitute can also compliment and top up their winter stores of pollen in the frames if those stores are low.  They will need that pollen in the spring when they start a new cycle of spring bees.  The pollen is not eaten over winter.  The stored pollen is going to become the spring bees.

Regarding digestion.  The patties and substitutes nowadays are good quality.  While some ingredients are not completely natural to the bee.  This is not a concern if you winter outdoors and there are periodic breaks in the weather when the bees can get out and vent.  If you winter indoors or it turns to a terrible winter with no flight days, only then can it be a problem.

As to how to mix it and to feed it.  Follow the instructions on the package.  For best effect, pollen and substitutes are fed internally, inside the hive.  External feeding pollen and powders really only works in the spring in great weather when the bees are in a frenzy to be brooding as hard as they can.

Hope that helps!

[Ben Framed]

@ TheHoneyPump
Helps Tremendously. Thanks Phillip

[2Sox]

[/quote]
The purpose of feeding substitute is, simply put, to make bees.  Pollen and substitutes are fed late summer and early fall to aid the colony in raising the last cycle of brood as healthy fat bees, fat bees that will last the winter.  Feeding the substitute can also compliment and top up their winter stores of pollen in the frames if those stores are low. 
[/quote]

Interesting idea.  However, this goes against everything I had learned about feeding pollen subs.  It has been my understanding that we DON'T want the population to boom (from subs) in fall because this would create too large a population that will consume too much of the winter stores. 

So are we gambling?  If this larger population is just flapping their wings and burning energy and not bringing in a substantial fall flow per bee - which seems to be the case considering the bad weather we've been getting - we're in for a crash: Too many bees and not enough food. I've gone through oner 200 lbs of sugar for six hives.  I definitely don't need more bees for the winter.

[blackforest beekeeper]

The purpose of feeding substitute is, simply put, to make bees.  Pollen and substitutes are fed late summer and early fall to aid the colony in raising the last cycle of brood as healthy fat bees, fat bees that will last the winter.  Feeding the substitute can also compliment and top up their winter stores of pollen in the frames if those stores are low. 
[/quote]

Interesting idea.  However, this goes against everything I had learned about feeding pollen subs.  It has been my understanding that we DON'T want the population to boom (from subs) in fall because this would create too large a population that will consume too much of the winter stores. 

So are we gambling?  If this larger population is just flapping their wings and burning energy and not bringing in a substantial fall flow per bee - which seems to be the case considering the bad weather we've been getting - we're in for a crash: Too many bees and not enough food. I've gone through oner 200 lbs of sugar for six hives.  I definitely don't need more bees for the winter.
[/quote]

as we don`t have fall flows on a regular basis, that is about the amount of sugar regularly needed to winter hives.

[Ben Framed]

Interesting idea.  However, this goes against everything I had learned about feeding pollen subs.  It has been my understanding that we DON'T want the population to boom (from subs) in fall because this would create too large a population that will consume too much of the winter stores. 

So are we gambling?  If this larger population is just flapping their wings and burning energy and not bringing in a substantial fall flow per bee - which seems to be the case considering the bad weather we've been getting - we're in for a crash: Too many bees and not enough food. I've gone through oner 200 lbs of sugar for six hives.  I definitely don't need more bees for the winter.

2SOX As you know my situation with the 4 nucs mentioned earlier is not a normal situtation. But, in a normal situation, when the bees have had all summer to gather all the pollen that they want, will the queen not still lay as long as the colony sees fit to do so or at least as long as she sees fit to do so weather the pollen is natural or substituted? Is it not common for the queen to lay well into late fall and early winter with or without pollen substitute? Especially if a goodly amount of pollen has been stored?
    As we have discussed, My late season splits are in dyer need of pollen so the bees will have the option to raise as long as they choose. And More importantly,  to be certain that they will have what they need in early spring. I would think that the real gamble would be, not providing enough pollen for the late winter and early spring build up even in normal circumstances. Without fresh nurse bees in late winter and early spring, what will be the chances of survival in the hive? TheHoneyPump mentioned, The bees will not consume pollen during the dead of winter but will during the early spring build up. Can we feed pollen patties then? Or will this be dangerous in areas where hive beetles are strong ? Remember Iddee says the beetles stay in the hive all winter!  Don't we want to be assured that the pollen supply will be there for the bees?
   As far as running out of feed, don't colonies sometimes run short of feed in late winter and early spring? Don't we or shouldn't we check our hives by weight during these times to be certain they have enough honey or feed to last until nectar starts flowing? Don't some do this by picking up the end of the hive, other by scales? And if low, what is done to assure they are replenished? Some feed sugar on top. Mountain method? Some feed fondant? Are there better ways to feed in late winter when supplies are short and sure to run out?  I have ask many questions here not only to you but to all who read this. I am trying to learn as much as I can in order t become a good beekeeper and help my bees as much as possible. And even though my first season has passed or is passing, I still have many questions and so much more to learn. Thank you and thank you all. 
Sincerely  Phillip

[Dallasbeek]

I think a reading (or re-reading) of Randy Oliver's articles on fat bees at his website Scientific Beekeeping might shed some light (or heat) on this topic. 

I tend to agree that we don't want too many winter bees (fat bees) because they will consume an inordinate amount of the food stores.  We need enough to cover the first generation of brood resulting from the queen's resumption of laying in late winter.  Any more than that are a drain on the hive.  Does the queen lay all the eggs she can and trust that there are nurse bees there to care for the brood?  Or does the queen lay only enough eggs to be covered by the number of fat winter bees that she has available?  In the latter case, maybe a large population of winter bees would be desirable, but if there are more than necessary, then the surplus are a waste, and the excess number of bees could cause the bees in cluster in cold weather to consume all the stores available and kill the hive.  Seems to me a delicate balance perhaps left to the bees to determine.  Our best intentions may have unwanted results.  I'd prefer a gradual buildup in the spring to an explosion of numbers, I think, but it's difficult to know what to do in this hobby sometimes.

[Dallasbeek]

A gradual buildup of bees in the spring may be more desirable because we don't have a huge early buildup of pollen- and nectar-producing plants.  If we have an explosive onset of pollen and nectar available, then, yes, a more rapid buildup of bees would be called for, but with a gradual increase in pollen and nectar available, any excess worker bees produced by the hive are a waste.  Might that influence the hive to enter swarm mode, perhaps prematurely (by that I mean at a time too early for the good of the hive, not a time to the beekeeper's expectation).

[Ben Framed]

I think a reading (or re-reading) of Randy Oliver's articles on fat bees at his website Scientific Beekeeping might shed some light (or heat) on this topic. 

I tend to agree that we don't want too many winter bees (fat bees) because they will consume an inordinate amount of the food stores.  We need enough to cover the first generation of brood resulting from the queen's resumption of laying in late winter.  Any more than that are a drain on the hive.  Does the queen lay all the eggs she can and trust that there are nurse bees there to care for the brood?  Or does the queen lay only enough eggs to be covered by the number of fat winter bees that she has available?  In the latter case, maybe a large population of winter bees would be desirable, but if there are more than necessary, then the surplus are a waste, and the excess number of bees could cause the bees in cluster in cold weather to consume all the stores available and kill the hive.  Seems to me a delicate balance perhaps left to the bees to determine.  Our best intentions may have unwanted results.  I'd prefer a gradual buildup in the spring to an explosion of numbers, I think, but it's difficult to know what to do in this hobby sometimes.

IF its difficult for you as a hobbyist, then what do you think about a first year beginner such as myself Haha. Wouldn't it be mice if we had someone on this forum who had a background of 7 generations of commercial beekeeping focused on high honey yields and R&D with current family operations of roughly 9,000 colonies.  And also an Engineering degree, a person who's family makes his or her living with bees can't afford to be blown in the wind, or take assuming guesses. They must know what he or she is talking about, wouldn't you agree?  If I had someone giving me advice such as that, I would listen very closely. Now if this person was a really nice person that joined this forum simply to help the hobbyist beekeeper as well as anyone else, and with all this experience, wouldn't that be nice of this selfless person. Especially if that person is humble. He, She  probably would not be interested in debating issues once he she has gave his advice. We are blessed here!
Thanks, Phillip

[Dallasbeek]

Do you have anyone in mind, Phillip?

[Live Oak]

In the north Mississippi latitude, you (OP) are likely going to have bees that are active and foraging throughout the Fall & Winter on warm days.  I do and I am a bit north of you, and I am feeding Ultra Bee dry feed year round.  The bees are not always consuming it, but only when they are not able to find natural pollen.  I use the Mann Lake Pro Pollen Feeders which keep the Ultra Bee dry feed dry and place the feeders on top of plastic 55 gallon barrels.

I would not put any food patties with more than 5% protein inside the hive during Fall/Winter as these can become SHB magnets.  When the temperatures become too cold to feed sugar syrup when needed, a sugar patty (try using Kent Williams' recipe) is a great source of carbohydrates that also help to absorb excess moisture inside the hive.

Good nutrition is essential for healthy and productive honey bees and their colonies especially during the late Summer through Fall when the hives are producing Winter bees.  Winter bees among other differences have much larger fat body organs which require high protein feed sources for them to develop properly.  In many cases, queens may be laying throughout the Winter but at a much reduced rate and size.  Hence the need for reliable sources of good nutrition.

In more northern climates, the temperatures are cold enough to cause the bees to cluster up and remain in cluster the entire Winter until warmer Spring temperatures draw them out.