Foundationless Frames With Aid of Fishingline

[Ben Framed]

Some things I have learned from experience along with experimentation and exploring, since we were posting on this topic a couple years ago. Considering both 'fishing line' reinforcement method, as well as completely open foundationless.
First, I appreciate all who joined in the conversation and input on this topic back then. Each poster made good points. Adding I use deeps not medium. These problems may not exist with mediums since they are not as tall and may not require as much support as deeps.. considering weight..

One thing I will 'second' is the point made by Coolbees about checkerboarding fishing line foundationless, (or any other foundationless for that matter), I found it's a must.. They will most certainly make a mess of things. Maybe not every time but It WILL happen..  Number 2 is though fishing line or any other type reinforcement is not only good for extraction, but a renforcent detouring sagging as well. Unfortunately I found out the hard way when 'new' comb was drawn out and immediately filled with honey, it can sag in the heat of the South, (speaking of completely foundationless without any type reinforcement), just as Mr Bush taught here; yet not only sag but tear off, literally ripping away from itself, or ripping from the starter strip. I have had this happen causing a domino effect.. What a mess and a waste.. Number 3, I had mentioned pen Nailing the starter strip with #23 pin nails in this topic. This is great but you MUST also glue these strips in place or they may also give way. Meaning the starter strips will, in my experience will come loose and again, what a mess and a waste. 'Yes' I have had this happen as well. Number 4 If you really want to go foundationless, I highly recommend the skewer method as described by Paus, over the fishing line method  My experience with this excellent method is, as long as you checkerboard with good straight frames of combs on both sides of the empty skewer frames. The bees will make a good, straight, strong, reinforced frame of comb in most cases.

Let me add, last but not least. Robo has posted of using wire, (and Mr Bush mentioned it here as well), through open frames and I feel certain; that is an excellent choice as well. Skewers were cheap and handy so I went for it. $1.00 per hundred at the local Dollar Tree location.  (dollar store)

I hope this helps. I wish I had realized the importance of each step, instead of "the school of hard knocks" lessens that I learned the hard way and am now sharing here with you.

Phillip

[Bob Wilson]

Interesting, Ben.
I suppose I will experience the cons of foundationless frames eventually. So far (3 years) I have only good things to say.
I don't fish line or skewer my frames. Although I see some warping of the cell size on old comb, in general the combs themselves never sag or tear or break, and all mine are deeps. Of course I started out with foundationless, and learned care in handling from the beginning.
I use wedge frames, breaking off the wooden wedge and gluing/tacking it on as a guide. I never add melted wax, but let the bees attach the comb themselves. Their attachment is almost always thick and strong at the top bar.
Meanwhile, I can't remember the last time they cross combed. But then I add empties between the brood frames, and that guides their building. I scatter 3 or 4 empty foundationless frames each week in my horizontal hives, rather than an entire empty box on a standard hive, so my bees never have to deal with a solid row of empty frames together. Maybe that leads to cross combing.
I do find some wonky, thick combs at the top, where the bees extend their honey cells, and that does interfere with the closeness of the next frame, but I imagine that happens with foundation also.

[Ben Framed]

Interesting, Ben.
I suppose I will experience the cons of foundationless frames eventually. So far (3 years) I have only good things to say.
I don't fish line or skewer my frames. Although I see some warping of the cell size on old comb, in general the combs themselves never sag or tear or break, and all mine are deeps. Of course I started out with foundationless, and learned care in handling from the beginning.
I use wedge frames, breaking off the wooden wedge and gluing/tacking it on as a guide. I never add melted wax, but let the bees attach the comb themselves. Their attachment is almost always thick and strong at the top bar.
Meanwhile, I can't remember the last time they cross combed. But then I add empties between the brood frames, and that guides their building. I scatter 3 or 4 empty foundationless frames each week in my horizontal hives, rather than an entire empty box on a standard hive, so my bees never have to deal with a solid row of empty frames together. Maybe that leads to cross combing.
I do find some wonky, thick combs at the top, where the bees extend their honey cells, and that does interfere with the closeness of the next frame, but I imagine that happens with foundation also.

Thank you Bob for your input on this subject. Very appreciated..   

>I suppose I will experience the cons of foundationless frames eventually. So far (3 years) I have only good things to say.
I don't fish line or skewer my frames. Although I see some warping of the cell size on old comb, in general the combs themselves never sag or tear or break, and all mine are deeps. Of course I started out with foundationless, and learned care in handling from the beginning.

I am happy that you haven't experienced sag, tear, or break, in your deep langstroth hives and I hope you never do.  I had this trouble during a late June flow, with new white comb made on completely foundationless without support, loaded with fresh nectar heated up in the hot sun.  Otherwise I have been ok with completely foundationless. Handling it had nothing to do with it in this case. It wasn't handled until the top was opened looking in side seeing it was time to clean up the tragic domino effected mess lol. It's a sad thing when it happens.

>so my bees never have to deal with a solid row of empty frames together. Maybe that leads to cross combing.

Indeed it does. Michael Bush, Coolbees, Cao, and others along with myself had discussed the same thing, actually Mr Bush had successfully achieved this (with precautions). I as you, had always placed empty frameless frames (supported or not), in between two drawn out frames, as can be read in pryor post here on this topic. We also talked of the prospect in earlier post above, of simply throwing an empty frameless box on top. For those who have not read, might find it interesting of what Mr Bush had to say. At the time of those post I was reluctant to try a box or even a few frames without the aid of fully drawn combs on either side. Thought warned, my curiosity was already there and my spirit of experimentation kicked in. lol That is where the experimentation part comes in. So much for that experiment.. 

>I use wedge frames, breaking off the wooden wedge and gluing/tacking it on as a guide. I never add melted wax, but let the bees attach the comb themselves. Their attachment is almost always thick and strong at the top bar.

Yes as you might have read, we also discussed wedges in pryor post above.. Along with different methods of attaching starter strips, as well as different materials for starter strips, including the wedge as you describe.

Bob, I could have started a new topic. But after looking back at this old topic and the members who took time to post their interesting thoughts, experiences, and opinions; I decided to update this valuable topic with my experiences, not only for your pleasure, but just as importantly for those who may in the future wish to go foundationless. At the same time, thinking about our guest and members, which might also enjoy going back in time reading different thoughts on this subject from these participating members, (sadly to say some of whom may no longer with us. [Good Ole Dallas for instance, I miss him]), while giving an honest effort to help all be successful, giving a leg up in the saddle, (if you will), avoiding the mistakes that I made as well as the results of experiments failed..