Next step? - advice needed

incognito · June 20, 2019, 03:53:32 PM

I plan on doing an inspection of Hive 1 this Saturday - about two months after package installation on 4/20.

This colony started a little slow but is now consuming 1:1 syrup at a rate of about 2 gallons a week. A one gallon frame feeder is in the bottom box and a 2 quart jar is on top of the inner cover.

The honey supers will start with just plastic foundation. I will continue feeding until the first super (dedicated to the bees) is drawn out with approximately 6 frames filled with honey/nectar/syrup.

The foragers are bringing in a lot more pollen than they were earlier. I expect to see all or most of the 19 frames of foundation in the two deep brood boxes drawn out soon.

Do I need at least one medium box of honey over the double brood box in order for the colony to survive the winter if I don't want to feed them? My beek club meets on Sunday - I plan on getting local advice then.

Should I wait until all of the frames are built out in the brood boxes before I add the honey super?

Should I wait until all of the frames are built out and are being used before I add the honey super?

ed/La. · June 20, 2019, 10:43:41 PM

Make sure there is frames for the queen to lay eggs. Hive get honey bound. Feeding to much sugar syrup can cause the same problem. I would consider stop feeding. The honey in there is not worth harvesting. It is sugar syrup not nectar.

incognito · June 20, 2019, 11:06:16 PM

Quote from: ed/La. on June 20, 2019, 10:43:41 PM
Make sure there is frames for the queen to lay eggs. Hive get honey bound. Feeding to much sugar syrup can cause the same problem. I would consider stop feeding. The honey in there is not worth harvesting. It is sugar syrup not nectar.

I'm not looking to harvest the first super of syrup/honey. That is all for them.
I do want them to build comb because I only have what they drew out this year.
Last inspection revealed plenty of frames of untouched foundation. That may be drawn by now.

Donovan J · June 21, 2019, 01:53:38 AM

Probably put it on now. If they aren't doing anything in a week take it off and put it back on once they fill up more of the brood nest.

cao · June 21, 2019, 02:16:14 AM

Like ed/La. said too much feeding can lead to being nectar/honey bound and swarming. I prefer to feed as little as possible. I assume that in your area that 2 deeps are plenty to overwinter your bees. If that is the case then I would stop feeding them and let them finish filling those boxes as they need it. They still have plenty of time to get that done this summer. They will only draw comb when they have something to put in it. I would wait until there are bees covering the frames before adding the super.

incognito · June 21, 2019, 09:58:50 AM

Thanks everyone for the replies.
If there are still frames with undraw foundation, should I move one undraw frame to the center of each box to encourage them to work on it?
I was advised to do that by a master beekeeper in my club.

saltybluegrass · June 21, 2019, 10:34:55 AM

I was empties on the outside like the brood box setup. But you may want to read the checkerboard article pinned to top of the forum as we

incognito · June 21, 2019, 11:33:24 AM

Quote from: saltybluegrass on June 21, 2019, 10:34:55 AM
I was empties on the outside like the brood box setup. But you may want to read the checkerboard article pinned to top of the forum as we

I just checked, the first post in the checkerboard thread was advised for supers only, not brood. "You do not CB brood frames. In no way does CBing involve the manipulations of brood nest. I REPEAT CBing HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MANIPULATION OF THE BROOD NEST!!!"
Other threads on this forum discuss inserting foundation in top bar hives similar to what I am considering.

I am not thinking of aggressively checkerboarding the brood nest, just inserting one empty frame at a time during the warmer weather where I believe maintaining brood temperature will not be an issue. Something like:

SSBBEBBSS
SSBBEBBSS

S-mainly stores, B-mainly brood, E-new foundation

Edited to add:
If the bees have reallocated how they are using the frames in each box since my last intervention - stores versus brood, I will follow their lead. I would consider checkerboarding the top box if I find all of the brood in the bottom box.

Donovan J · June 21, 2019, 01:05:36 PM

Quote from: incognito on June 21, 2019, 11:33:24 AM
Quote from: saltybluegrass on June 21, 2019, 10:34:55 AM
I was empties on the outside like the brood box setup. But you may want to read the checkerboard article pinned to top of the forum as we
I just checked, the first post in the checkerboard thread was advised for supers only, not brood. "You do not CB brood frames. In no way does CBing involve the manipulations of brood nest. I REPEAT CBing HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MANIPULATION OF THE BROOD NEST!!!"
Other threads on this forum discuss inserting foundation in top bar hives similar to what I am considering.

I am not thinking of aggressively checkerboarding the brood nest, just inserting one empty frame at a time during the warmer weather where I believe maintaining brood temperature will not be an issue. Something like:

SSBBEBBSS
SSBBEBBSS

S-mainly stores, B-mainly brood, E-new foundation

Edited to add:
If the bees have reallocated how they are using the frames in each box since my last intervention - stores versus brood, I will follow their lead. I would consider checkerboarding the top box if I find all of the brood in the bottom box.

Whenever i need frames drawn out I usually put them in the middle of the top box and they draw them out really fast compared to along the sides.

iddee · June 21, 2019, 02:32:22 PM

Your master beekeeper told you right in warm weather. If you still have cold nights, put the empty frame next to the outer brood frame, rather than in between two brood frames.

incognito · June 21, 2019, 09:47:00 PM

I went into the hive late this afternoon.
There are still a number of frames with undrawn foundation on the sides of the brood boxes so I just moved one undrawn frame from the outside to the middle of each box, refilled the frame feeder with syrup and got out quickly.
There was a little bit of comb on the top of the frames near the oval opening in the inner cover.

Maybe next week I'll add the super.

Tom

Donovan J · June 22, 2019, 12:58:40 AM

Quote from: incognito on June 21, 2019, 09:47:00 PM
I went into the hive late this afternoon.
There are still a number of frames with undrawn foundation on the sides of the brood boxes so I just moved one undrawn frame from the outside to the middle of each box, refilled the frame feeder with syrup and got out quickly.
There was a little bit of comb on the top of the frames near the oval opening in the inner cover.

Maybe next week I'll add the super.

Tom

If you do add the super and the bees aren't doing anything on it, probably take it off for a while because the bees have to warm up and tend to more space than they need to.

incognito · July 02, 2019, 09:18:36 PM

Update (from one week ago):
I was talking to one of the Master Beekeepers at our June meeting. She is participating in a program to inspect local hives so we arranged to have her look at mine on June 26th. I have to say that beekeepers are a helpful bunch.
She marked my queen for me but did not get what I meant when I said that the queen will probably now live longer...because I might not do something clumsy, sending her to an early death. The queen looked good to me. Yeah...like I know what an unhealthy one looks like.

We removed the frame feeder from the bottom brood box. We inserted two new frames, one in the middle of the brood nest, the other on the edge of the brood nest. We moved an empty frame to the middle of the top brood box. We added a medium of new foundation above the top brood box but did not put in a queen excluder to increase the likelihood of the queen moving up to get comb drawn in there. So, for now, I am providing a three box brood nest.
I am happy to report good brood patterns, capped stores, pollen and the frames added the week earlier well drawn out.
The colony is consuming more than a quart of syrup per day. With a dearth soon to be starting in this area, I am considering changing to a 2 gallon top feeder instead of the 2 quart top jar.
The Master Beekeeper is returning to the apiary tomorrow, primarily to check out the status of a split my son did to his hive. Last week may have been too early to see signs of a newly mated queen. If it looks bleak tomorrow they will be combining the split with one or both of the thriving hives.

Ben Framed · July 02, 2019, 10:14:35 PM

Quote from: incognito on July 02, 2019, 09:18:36 PM
Update (from one week ago):
I was talking to one of the Master Beekeepers at our June meeting. She is participating in a program to inspect local hives so we arranged to have her look at mine on June 26th. I have to say that beekeepers are a helpful bunch.
She marked my queen for me but did not get what I meant when I said that the queen will probably now live longer...because I might not do something clumsy, sending her to an early death. The queen looked good to me. Yeah...like I know what an unhealthy one looks like.

We removed the frame feeder from the bottom brood box. We inserted two new frames, one in the middle of the brood nest, the other on the edge of the brood nest. We moved an empty frame to the middle of the top brood box. We added a medium of new foundation above the top brood box but did not put in a queen excluder to increase the likelihood of the queen moving up to get comb drawn in there. So, for now, I am providing a three box brood nest.
I am happy to report good brood patterns, capped stores, pollen and the frames added the week earlier well drawn out.
The colony is consuming more than a quart of syrup per day. With a dearth soon to be starting in this area, I am considering changing to a 2 gallon top feeder instead of the 2 quart top jar.
The Master Beekeeper is returning to the apiary tomorrow, primarily to check out the status of a split my son did to his hive. Last week may have been too early to see signs of a newly mated queen. If it looks bleak tomorrow they will be combining the split with one or both of the thriving hives.

Good times!

incognito · July 08, 2019, 09:55:17 AM

Update:
On July 3rd I changed to a top feeder since they were going through 2 quarts of 1:1 syrup each day. I saw that the bees had not started drawing out the frames in the newly added medium super. I did not inspect the bottom two deep brood boxes. Maybe they drew out the empty frames, maybe not.

Now they are consuming / storing one gallon of 1:1 syrup each day. I am feeding them daily so I can monitor the intake. A few days ago I lifted the edge of the top feeder just enough to see bees covering every top bar of the medium super. I did not check to see if they were drawing comb in the medium because I am limiting my time inside the hive. The screen on the top feeder is covered in bees. Way more bees have access to the syrup as compared to the jar lid.

The activity outside the hive looks good. Lots of traffic in and out. Fanning on the landing board has increased, and so has the temperature. Minimal bearding on the face of the hive. The amount of pollen coming in has declined significantly. Is that a sign that the dearth has started?

I did find a couple of dozen bees inside the top feeder a few days ago. I had stacked two nickels on the inner cover for ventilation and I assume that the bees were able to slip in. I left just a single nickel and upon return the next day I saw about a half dozen bees up there. I removed the nickels yesterday evening and as of this morning there were no bees up there. If I add space for ventilation it will be below the top feeder. The hardware cloth in the top feeder appears to be intact. My major concern here is the top feeder might be inviting robbers from other hives.

The plan is to cut off the syrup when the medium frames in the super are drawn out. However we typically start a dearth in July in this area and I may have to feed for that.

How often should I go into the hive to monitor their progress and check for swarm cells caused by backfilling? (I assume that the queen will likely move up into the medium box if the bees fill the comb in the brood boxes with syrup.)

Should I increase the amount of syrup in the top feeder and let them have as much as they will take?

Bob Wilson · July 08, 2019, 11:37:44 AM

A connected question to incognito above, is do I have to feed during dearths, if there is plenty of honey inside the hive? They will begin uncapping honey stores and eating that during dearth, correct?

incognito · July 08, 2019, 11:54:43 AM

Quote from: bobll on July 08, 2019, 11:37:44 AM
A connected question to incognito above, is do I have to feed during dearths, if there is plenty of honey inside the hive? They will begin uncapping honey stores and eating that during dearth, correct?

My hope is that the bees will be on their own after the first year other than putting on a robbing screen and reducing the entrance as needed.

ed/La. · July 08, 2019, 11:57:22 AM

During a dearth the hive will shrink in population. If you feed syrup and they have pollen they will continue to grow or maintain size. If no pollen is available a pollen substitute is needed. I like to treat for mites when brood is minimal then feed to build numbers for fall flow.

incognito · July 08, 2019, 08:24:01 PM

Another update:
They went through another gallon of 1:1 syrup today. I believe the foragers are still bringing in nectar but not pollen.

I set the top feeder aside and pulled a few frames from the medium super. The bees are actively drawing out the frames, to the extent where tomorrow I will probably add another medium super on top of a queen excluder and stop feeding.

I did not dig into the two bottom brood boxes. Primarily because I went in without the smoker lit because I did not expect to see the progress that I did. The bees got agitated when I started moving the frames around. One tried to sting me but my baggy jumpsuit prevented the stinger from reaching me.

Lately they have been circling my head anytime I go near the hives. I suspect that is because of events related to another hive only a few feet away that I will share in a separate post.

incognito · July 11, 2019, 11:08:57 AM

Well that is it, the bees are on their own. No more free lunch.

On Tuesday 7/9 I added a second medium super of foundation and put in the last gallon of syrup that I intend to feed for now. Should I have put in a queen excluder if I want to harvest some honey from the second super? It did not appear that the queen laid eggs in the first super.

The two deep brood boxes appear to be fully drawn. I did not pull any frames but I tipped the boxes looking for swarm cells on the bottom of the frames. There was only one empty queen cup on the upper brood box. Those 10 frame boxes are heavy! They must be packed with honey and syrup.

The first medium super was approximately 1/2 to 3/4 drawn out. Since the bees are busy coming and going, I am assuming that there is still nectar out there for them. Therefore I will leave it to them to build out the rest with natural resources.

I feel like I made it through the first beekeeping challenge somewhat successfully - installing bees in a hive with new foundation.