Queen cups with eggs in one hive and multiple eggs in another

[Duane]

Four days ago, I noticed one hive of two boxes had the top box full and the bottom box mostly empty.  I moved 3-4 frames of brood into the bottom box, and rearranged the top with empty frames next to the remaining brood.  Today, I see queen cups with eggs in them.  Lots of space for drawing new comb, but not much for laying eggs.  Why are there queen cells when not full and looks like they were started when I rearranged things giving them more room to spread out?

In another hive, a split from queen cells in another hive, I had expected to see eggs.  There were none, but since I read it could take from 30-37 days from the egg for the queen to start laying, I waited a few more days.  I then added a strip of eggs I cut out and placed them pointing down between the tops of the frames.  Four days ago I did not see any queen cells started.  Today, no eggs in the strip, just empty comb so thought all ok.  However, I see multiple eggs in cells, some with small larva and eggs beside them.  Doesn't seem right to me.  And if I remember correctly, I think there was a queen cup with two eggs in it.

I take it I have less than 5 days to do something with the first hive.  Any suggestions?  I'd rather add bees to other hives rather than lose them, but with 90+ degree days, many others are hanging outside so don't want to move the problem elsewhere.
I willing to sacrifice it for wild chances of keeping it.  Any way I could move the queen to the egg laying one without her being killed?  Maybe move the queen and some brood to the egg laying location, and shake out all of the egg laying ones?

[TheHoneyPump]

First off. Lets be clear on what you see.
Queen cup : is empty
Queen cell : has egg or larvae and jelly or capped

Which is it?  If cups, there is no issue. The bees will always have a few cups made.  If cells, there is an issue.

The first hive.  Queenrite.  Cells appearing after you moved frames around.  Three possibilities. 1) you killed or injured the queen when moving frames.  2) major disruption of the brood nest throws pheromones off. It is common to see some cups started. drawn afterwards. 3) there is not enough space in the nest. The manipulation made things worse. They are now making swarm preparations.

The second hive is laying workers. DO NOT attempt to introduce a queen to them.  You have two choices.  Which one you do depends on how many bees is in it and whether the other hives need more space or not. Choices. 
1) combine with a strong queenrite hive.  One that is bigger and stronger than the LW hive. Newspaper combine.  Putting the LW hive on top. In a few days there will be a pile of dead bees out front.  Those are all the rogue LW that the queenrite hive ousted.
2) take the LW hive away to the middle of the beeyard.  Shake out all the bees.  Remove all the equipment. Take it away and store. Do not give them the hive to go back to. This forces the LW bees to beg their way into the other hives. Straight bees will be accepted in. The LWs will be blocked or killed at the entrance.
..... use the good bees to sort out the LW bees


Hope that helps!

[van from Arkansas]

Duane, The previous post by HP, covers all the bases.  In short, in a word, AGREE with HP methodical advice.  Well texted, HP, very well texted.
Van

[ed/La.]

Young queens lay multiple eggs sometimes. We're the eggs on the bottom or the sides? Was the pattern decent or very random?  I think it is a little early for laying worker. I would give it a week. If you have extra brood give it a frame. Young queens are hard to spot.

[Duane]

I didn't look for a queen that much, but what kind of convinced me was eggs where larva already were.  Is that normal for young queens to lay in an occupied cell?  The eggs were mostly in the bottom, but some had 3 or 4.  This is about day 37 from queen egg.  Is too soon for laying workers?  The clock is ticking on the other hive.  I could destroy the queen cells to buy more time to see if these are laying workers.

[Duane]

1) combine with a strong queenrite hive.  One that is bigger and stronger than the LW hive. Newspaper combine.  Putting the LW hive on top. In a few days there will be a pile of dead bees out front.  Those are all the rogue LW that the queenrite hive ousted.

If I use top entrances, would I reverse this, putting the laying workers on bottom and the queen right on top with the entrance?  Will the newspaper suffocate them in this hot weather?

[TheHoneyPump]

At 37 days ..... definitely laying worker.

Why would you be using top entrance? Close it.  Send everything out the bottom entrance.  Set the paper and the LW hive on top.  Make a few slits in the paper for airflow and a place for them to start chewing.

90 deg is not hot.  The bees keep the interior of the hive at 96.


This will bee my last comment on this one.

[ed/La.]

Some times when you rearrange the brood like you did in the first hive they build queen cells because the queens pheromones are not detected in that box. The bees think they are queen less and start making new queen. Don't destroy those cups you might need them. If they are on more then one frame you could give one to your other hive. Before I did a combine make sure it is queen less. As far as your entrance question I often use 2 or more small entrances. The thing is if you combine and don't lock them in for few days they will fly back to original location.  Make sure that have some water if you lock them in. If the eggs are on the bottom center of the cells you probably have a queen.

[Duane]

I thought I'd peek in today at the queen cup in the top to see if it's more developed.  I'm pretty sure it had an egg in one of two frames yesterday, but all three cups in those two frames were empty now.  I didn't look in the bottom box, not wanting to disturb them, but maybe they decided everything is ok.  Anyway, I saw the queen on that frame and directed her down into the box and added the frame with eggs and larva to the suspected laying worker box.  I'll wait a day or two and check things again.

Regarding top entrances, yes, if I had a top entrance in addition to a bottom entrance, it would be crazy asking about it because it would make sense to close it for now.  But I have only top entrances.  Guess that might be unusual for most, which I was asking about reversing the process.

[TheHoneyPump]

Just a quick note on laying worker.  Yes, you can give them open brood.  Yes, they often will develop some queen cells and raise a queen. The issue is they feel they are queenrite. When that new queen they just raised returns from her mating flight and starts laying they will kill her. Not always, but pretty much always. Realistically, you have only the two options given. Certainly you may try other methods, repeating the experiences being shared and advised against. Just be aware and prepared to embark on a timeline that will take all summer, be fraught with disappointment, beewilderment, frustration, and ultimately demoralization of the beekeeper as this LW hive dwindles out, has killed multiple queens in the process, and will not be suitable to enter fall/winter.  LW takes weeks to develop and weeks to reverse. Summer is short, use the time available wisely.

If you have only top entrances, then the best method will be the shake out. Remember, remove the existing hive equipment from its location entirely. Do not give them the same place to go back to. LW fly just as fine and well as any other bee. They will simply go back and carry on. By removing the hive completely, that forces them to beg into the neighbouring hives. (Use the good bees to sort out the messed up LW bees). When you do bring that hive equipment back later for a split or whatever, either setup in a different spot or have at decent amount of time lapse (like 10 days) between the shake out and the replacement hive.

Hope that helps.

[Duane]

I didn't know that about them continuing to raising the added queen cells and killing the resulting queen.

Yes, what you say about wasting the rest of the summer on laying workers, I fully understand.  Been there, tried it awhile, and did a shake out.  My purpose of adding brood was to see if queen cells would be developed.  If so, then that would indicate there is no queen and I would shake them out.  But if no queen cells are developed, then now that I think about it, I might have wasted a brood frame.  However, I can wait to see if the larva in the rest of the box become worker brood just to be sure.

[TheHoneyPump]

Tick - Tock ... another summer day has gone by.

[incognito]

At 37 days ..... definitely laying worker.

Why do a shake out? The worker bees are near the end of their summer lifespan, no? Why salvage the resource consuming drones at this point? Why have the other colonies waste energy and lives sorting out the dying colony?
Same questions on the combine option. Except I get where you might be inclined to salvage whatever nectar/honey stores are in the comb.

ETA: I did not factor the time from when the queen laid her last egg to the bee emerging. The youngest bee will have a remaining life expectancy of +/- 3 weeks.

[ed/La.]

There is no rush at this point. Give it a week then look for the queen and brood. There is just as good of a chance that there is a queen as not. He can dump them next week if necessary. I never had queens lay at day 18. Usually day 25 to 30. 35 days is not unheard of. We don't know how accurate day count is.

[Ben Framed]

I didn't know that about them continuing to raising the added queen cells and killing the resulting queen.

Yes, what you say about wasting the rest of the summer on laying workers, I fully understand.  Been there, tried it awhile, and did a shake out.  My purpose of adding brood was to see if queen cells would be developed.  If so, then that would indicate there is no queen and I would shake them out.  But if no queen cells are developed, then now that I think about it, I might have wasted a brood frame.  However, I can wait to see if the larva in the rest of the box become worker brood just to be sure.

Is this accurate?  Placing a frame of young larva inside a laying worker colony, the frame will be ignored by the nurse bees as far as queen cells are concerned, and no queen cell developed as a result?

[cao]

Is this accurate?  Placing a frame of young larva inside a laying worker colony, the frame will be ignored by the nurse bees as far as queen cells are concerned, and no queen cell developed as a result?

It takes time for the brood pheromone to suppress the laying workers.  Until then the laying worker hive thinks it is "queenright".  That is why you put a frame of brood each week for three weeks.  By the third week they will realize they are queenless if not before.

[Duane]

Tick - Tock ... another summer day has gone by.

Yep.  That's true.  However, the only critical time I saw was the hive that was creating queen cells.  Meanwhile, the laying worker hive is still bringing in nectar, drying it and capping it.  I checked that queen right hive and now there are no eggs nor larva in queen cups.  This is a useful experience to me as I did not know they would remove the eggs and larva from a queen cell.  They must have decided they weren't ready to swarm.

The laying worker hive:  Now they have 5-6 eggs in a cell, with eggs mid way on the sides of cells, and the previous cells capped as drone cells.  No doubt about it in my mind now.  They were developing queen cells on the worker brood frame I placed in.  I'm glad you mentioned about them letting a queen hatch out and then killing her later.  Otherwise I would have been tempted to try it.  I'm curious why with multiple laying workers, they would not welcome a laying queen along side of them?

Anyway,  I removed the hive away from the hives and shook them out.  If I had done it before, I'd be laying awake at night worrying whether I did the right thing.  I can now sleep soundly knowing that I have confirmed there was no hope for them.  I think that's worth something, worth a couple of extra days.

However, I'm now worried about the hive nearest to where they were.  There was a mass of bees on the side of the box.  I narrowed the entrance up, but maybe not soon enough. 

[TheHoneyPump]

You did the right thing.  Sleep well.  The bees will sort out the bees.  Just do not disturb that nearby hive for 3 to 5 days if that is where most of them went.  They will appreciate the boost in workforce.  Though they will be a bit edgy and unstable while they sort out and oust the rogue LWs.  Rest assured their queen will be protected and safe.  Just watch and be astonished at the size of the pile of bees that will accumulate out front.  Each one a LW.  When there is a LW condition it is not one or two or few of them.  It is 10s and 100s of them.  The hive will detect and sort them.  The LW will straighten out her ways or she will be promptly executed.

[Duane]

I checked the nearby box yesterday and saw eggs.  So I knew the queen was there within the last 3 days.  And then I saw the nice fat yellow queen as I had remembered her.  So all is well, and a lot more bees!   

[Ben Framed]

Very interesting thread.
Phillip