Bees Upset on Frames Being Pulled

[The15thMember]

As I've mentioned, I have a hive that has become quite testy lately.  They have had the same queen since spring, and up until about a month ago they were calm and very workable.  They act completely fine when I'm opening up the hive.  They don't fly out at me as I'm removing the top and the boxes, and they sit quite calmly in the top boxes as I'm working the bottom ones (I work all my hives bottom to top).  But when I pull a frame, all the bees on that frame, and that frame only, get agitated immediately and start running at top speed around on the frame.  So for example, when I pull the first frame, the rest of the box stays calm, but that frame in my hand gets really upset.  This wouldn't be much of an issue if they calmed down once I replaced the frame, but they don't, which means as I move through the box, frame by frame the box gets more and more agitated until the bees are targeting my hands and bumping my veil.  The frame I have sitting outside the hive while I work a box is absolutely frantic by the time I replace them.  I used Jim Altmiller's 10-30 smoking rule today on this hive, and it made them workable, but they are still very upset, and at about frame 5-6 working the box, smoke ceases to settle them and seems to make them more agitated.  Why are they reacting to the frames being pulled like this?  Is there anything else I can do to help calm them down?       

[Ben Framed]

Member, I have notice the same thing. My hives have been gentle enough to work without even a veil up until just recently, if I had so chosen.  I thought it was because the flow here has really trickled down and I suspected that had something to do with it?  But really I don't know. SO, what I have been doing lately is moving really slow, every so often lightly smoking just across the top of the box I am working, not letting them have time to become as you described, (heading them off at the pass so to speak), which works pretty good. I feel sure that someone here with more experience will educate us. 

[iddee]

Ben is right. It's the dearth. Very light smoke and slow, smooth movements is the answer, as much as there is an answer.

[Ben Framed]

Ben is right. It's the dearth. Very light smoke and slow, smooth movements is the answer, as much as there is an answer.

Thanks for the reassurance iddee, it means a lot to me, coming from you.
Phillip

[van from Arkansas]

Good afternoon Member, thanks for your passed textual contributions.

This time of year the bees get anxious, defensive.  This happens with most hives, even gentle hives.  The bees have worked all spring and summer for one purpose and that purpose is winter.  And winter survival depends on honey.  The bees realize the days are getting shorter.  They realize flowers are fewer and time is limited and the bees will be producing the specialized winter honeybee.

So, last June a beek could inspect a hive, even take replaceable honey frames and the bees would endure with patience.  However, the shorter days of August tells the bees time is limited, Honey is limited so the bees become more defensive as the life of the hive is an issue.

Now, Member, I have described the emotions of a honey bee.  Don?t take this literally, it?s the point I am trying to make.  The honeybees will indeed prepare for winter and by unknown factors the queen will lay different eggs from now in or very soon.  These new eggs will produce a different kind of honeybee; One that will have enlarged livers or fat bodies as they are commonly called which produce the cytochromes.  To much detail, ok, I?ll back off and rearrange my text.  Very soon, the queen will lay winter bees which are different from the spring summer bees.  All this change causes defensive behaviors exhibited by the soon to vanish summer bees along with the drones, a complete change of the guard as some might say.  Only the queen remains.

Here is a suggestion:
When I inspected my bees this AM, I noticed the bees were scampering about on pulled frames, acting kinda nervous.  I just held the frame STILL in my hands for maybe a minute and the bees settled down.  I mean from a nervous scampering to a calmly walking about the frame, just 60 seconds is all it took to calm the bees.

Member, Ben, beeks; if I did not make the above clear, don?t hesitate to reply a question.
Blessings
Van

[Ben Framed]

Mr Van, Once again I thank you.  I had no idea that the queen laid different type eggs, except fertilized, female. Or unfertilized, male or drone.  I had already came to the same conclusion as your  above that you stated, as is accurate behavior as you described, for this time of year, when I noticed a difference in their behavior change, except I was reasoning they were acting in this manner from pure instinct never realizing there were biological differences in the bees.  Thank you very much for this new revelation.
Phillip

[van from Arkansas]

BTW, Phil, the fat body of the honey bee is what Varroa feeds on, a most important organ. The fat body is similar to a liver in functioning and is much larger in winter bees than spring, summer bees.  We just do not know how the queen creates this specialized winter bee.  That is a honey bee with enlarged fat body made special for clustering and enduring the cold.  So are so many secretes of the honey bee that we have not unlocked.

When varroa feeds on the pupae of a winter honey bee, the bee is weakened and slowly dies off during winter months.  So in Fall a beek sees a huge healthy cluster of bees only to find a tiny dead cluster in March.  Unfortunately I know from experience.  This is a common sign of Varroa, also called colony collapse disorder,,,, or lack of food.
Cheers
Van

[Ben Framed]

BTW, Phil, the fat body of the honey bee is what Varroa feeds on, a most important organ. The fat body is similar to a liver in functioning and is much larger in winter bees than spring, summer bees.  We just do not know how the queen creates this specialized winter bee.  That is a honey bee with enlarged fat body made special for clustering and enduring the cold.  So are so many secretes of the honey bee that we have not unlocked.

When varroa feeds on the pupae of a winter honey bee, the bee is weakened and slowly dies off during winter months.  So in Fall a beek sees a huge healthy cluster of bees only to find a tiny dead cluster in March.  Unfortunately I know from experience.  This is a common sign of Varroa, also called colony collapse disorder,,,, or lack of food.
Cheers
Van

Thanks Mr Van. Dr Samuel Ramsey has an excellent video explaining how he discovered the varroa feeding on the fat of bees, which was previously thought to believe the varroa sucked bee blood as a tick might do. Yes so much still left to learn about the bees. You know the same changes occur in nature with most of all Gods wonderful creatures. Deer put out a thick winter fur as do most fur or hair bearing animals. Ducks fatten up for the winter, enabling them to sustain the harsh cold of winter and cold water. I suspect that God put a built in timer in their genes as an internal clock such as bears hibernate. Our horses would shed their hair sooner if we would stall them and add artificial light after the winter solstice. Therefore I was thinking the same applies to bees. I never would have guessed the queen laid different eggs. so much more to learn about these wonderful creatures, the honey bee. Thanks.
Phillip

[van from Arkansas]

It is called FAT BODY, which is not fat.  Fat Body is a bee organ similar in function to a mammal liver.  The original function was unknown so early biologists called this organ FAT BODY due do its fatty looking appearance.  A bee liver would be a better name.

[Ben Framed]

It is called FAT BODY, which is not fat.  Fat Body is a bee organ similar in function to a mammal liver.  The original function was unknown so early biologists called this organ FAT BODY due do its fatty looking appearance.  A bee liver would be a better name.

Well I?m no scientist by a long shot the correct terms allude me I will confess. 😁
But the video by Dr Ramsey is excellent just the same and I highly recommend all beekeepers watching it. 

[van from Arkansas]

Agreed, I have watched the video twice.

[Ben Framed]

Agreed, I have watched the video twice.

Thank you for your input Mr Van
Phillip

[Bob Wilson]

I also have seen the bees change. When in the spring, the smoke calmed them down, last time I gave them a little smoke, there was an immediate roar in the hive. An eruption of unhappy buzzing from within. Not a nice sound.

[Ben Framed]

I also have seen the bees change. When in the spring, the smoke calmed them down, last time I gave them a little smoke, there was an immediate roar in the hive. An eruption of unhappy buzzing from within. Not a nice sound.

Not taking Mr Vans words lightly, as I very much appreciate his scientific background and knowledge. I will be watching closely to the behavior of the bees when the golden rod flow starts here. After all its not winter yet and the change of eggs that he tells us about should not occur yet? Therefore I am hoping they, (the bees) will settle back to normal when the goldenrod flow kicks in? Many questions I know. But learning as we travel along.
Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Agreed, I have watched the video twice.

Well I?m no scientist by a long shot the correct terms allude me I will confess. 😁
But the video by Dr Ramsey is excellent just the same and I highly recommend all beekeepers watch it.

In case any one here has not seen the video that Mr Van and I are talking about, and might be interested in watching, I will post the link below.
Phillip

https://youtu.be/DK2Xi0ST4rA

[iddee]

Ben, Van did not say today's bees are winter bees. He said the eggs laid today will be winter bees. The bees today know the harvest is nearly over and it is time to guard the accumulated wares. Most of the foragers are staying home and guarding the warehouse.

[Ben Framed]

Ben, Van did not say today's bees are winter bees. He said the eggs laid today will be winter bees. The bees today know the harvest is nearly over and it is time to guard the accumulated wares. Most of the foragers are staying home and guarding the warehouse.

Thanks iddee, I acknowledged  this in post number 13. Probably while you were posting. You and I do this regularly, (post an idea or something similar wile the other is responding). Sometimes me and sometimes you.


Ammendment, I understnad what you are telling me. I should have said bees instead of eggs, sorry for the confusion.

''After all its not winter yet and the change of, X(eggs)X,  {bees}, that he tells us about should not occur yet?'' Thanks iddee for pointing this out.

[The15thMember]

Wow, that's a lot of replies really fast!     I figured the dearth was playing a big part in it, I just didn't know if there was something I was missing maybe, since not all my hives are really reacting to the dearth. 

Ben is right. It's the dearth. Very light smoke and slow, smooth movements is the answer, as much as there is an answer.

I really paid attention to moving deliberately and slowly in the brood chamber where the bee population was heavy, and then I tried to be smooth but as fast as possible in the supers where there were less bees, which seemed to work pretty well.  I will try to smoke them a little less next time and see if it goes better.  Since I knew they were testy, I was smoking them pretty heavily today. 

I was actually pretty proud of myself for not getting stung.  This is only my 2nd summer beekeeping and I was pleased to see how confidently I can handle the frames now, even when the bees are not acting particularly friendly.  Not tooting my own horn or anything, but it's rewarding to find out that you can in fact handle a box full of thousands of stinging insects, even when they aren't really cooperating.   

Good afternoon Member, thanks for your passed textual contributions.

This time of year the bees get anxious, defensive.  This happens with most hives, even gentle hives.  The bees have worked all spring and summer for one purpose and that purpose is winter.  And winter survival depends on honey.  The bees realize the days are getting shorter.  They realize flowers are fewer and time is limited and the bees will be producing the specialized winter honeybee.

So, last June a beek could inspect a hive, even take replaceable honey frames and the bees would endure with patience.  However, the shorter days of August tells the bees time is limited, Honey is limited so the bees become more defensive as the life of the hive is an issue.

Now, Member, I have described the emotions of a honey bee.  Don?t take this literally, it?s the point I am trying to make.  The honeybees will indeed prepare for winter and by unknown factors the queen will lay different eggs from now in or very soon.  These new eggs will produce a different kind of honeybee; One that will have enlarged livers or fat bodies as they are commonly called which produce the cytochromes.  To much detail, ok, I?ll back off and rearrange my text.  Very soon, the queen will lay winter bees which are different from the spring summer bees.  All this change causes defensive behaviors exhibited by the soon to vanish summer bees along with the drones, a complete change of the guard as some might say.  Only the queen remains.

Here is a suggestion:
When I inspected my bees this AM, I noticed the bees were scampering about on pulled frames, acting kinda nervous.  I just held the frame STILL in my hands for maybe a minute and the bees settled down.  I mean from a nervous scampering to a calmly walking about the frame, just 60 seconds is all it took to calm the bees.

Member, Ben, beeks; if I did not make the above clear, don?t hesitate to reply a question.
Blessings
Van

Thank you as always for the wealth of information, Mr. Van.  Please do not worry about overloading me with tennously related details or extraneous information.  I am very scientifically minded and also a writer, and therefore I am not intimidated by large technical sounding words, in fact I relish the opportunity to learn new ones, so keep the information coming!  I will also be trying your suggestion of holding on to the frames a little longer.  Knowing that the bees had the potential to be irritated definitely made me work the box faster than I normally do, and perhaps the quick in and out of the box is unnerving them.   

I was thinking of perhaps trying some sugar water spray as an addition tool next time, to see if they'd respond to that.  Any thoughts on this idea? 

   

[Ben Framed]

Wow, that's a lot of replies really fast!     I figured the dearth was playing a big part in it, I just didn't know if there was something I was missing maybe, since not all my hives are really reacting to the dearth. 

Ben is right. It's the dearth. Very light smoke and slow, smooth movements is the answer, as much as there is an answer.

I really paid attention to moving deliberately and slowly in the brood chamber where the bee population was heavy, and then I tried to be smooth but as fast as possible in the supers where there were less bees, which seemed to work pretty well.  I will try to smoke them a little less next time and see if it goes better.  Since I knew they were testy, I was smoking them pretty heavily today. 

I was actually pretty proud of myself for not getting stung.  This is only my 2nd summer beekeeping and I was pleased to see how confidently I can handle the frames now, even when the bees are not acting particularly friendly.  Not tooting my own horn or anything, but it's rewarding to find out that you can in fact handle a box full of thousands of stinging insects, even when they aren't really cooperating.   

Good afternoon Member, thanks for your passed textual contributions.

This time of year the bees get anxious, defensive.  This happens with most hives, even gentle hives.  The bees have worked all spring and summer for one purpose and that purpose is winter.  And winter survival depends on honey.  The bees realize the days are getting shorter.  They realize flowers are fewer and time is limited and the bees will be producing the specialized winter honeybee.

So, last June a beek could inspect a hive, even take replaceable honey frames and the bees would endure with patience.  However, the shorter days of August tells the bees time is limited, Honey is limited so the bees become more defensive as the life of the hive is an issue.

Now, Member, I have described the emotions of a honey bee.  Don?t take this literally, it?s the point I am trying to make.  The honeybees will indeed prepare for winter and by unknown factors the queen will lay different eggs from now in or very soon.  These new eggs will produce a different kind of honeybee; One that will have enlarged livers or fat bodies as they are commonly called which produce the cytochromes.  To much detail, ok, I?ll back off and rearrange my text.  Very soon, the queen will lay winter bees which are different from the spring summer bees.  All this change causes defensive behaviors exhibited by the soon to vanish summer bees along with the drones, a complete change of the guard as some might say.  Only the queen remains.

Here is a suggestion:
When I inspected my bees this AM, I noticed the bees were scampering about on pulled frames, acting kinda nervous.  I just held the frame STILL in my hands for maybe a minute and the bees settled down.  I mean from a nervous scampering to a calmly walking about the frame, just 60 seconds is all it took to calm the bees.

Member, Ben, beeks; if I did not make the above clear, don?t hesitate to reply a question.
Blessings
Van

Thank you as always for the wealth of information, Mr. Van.  Please do not worry about overloading me with tennously related details or extraneous information.  I am very scientifically minded and also a writer, and therefore I am not intimidated by large technical sounding words, in fact I relish the opportunity to learn new ones, so keep the information coming!  I will also be trying your suggestion of holding on to the frames a little longer.  Knowing that the bees had the potential to be irritated definitely made me work the box faster than I normally do, and perhaps the quick in and out of the box is unnerving them.   

I was thinking of perhaps trying some sugar water spray as an addition tool next time, to see if they'd respond to that.  Any thoughts on this idea? 

Yes Member, you have posted a good topic here, I have learned a lot form it and I hope others have as well. Thanks to our more experienced beekeepers as Mr Van and iddee.  Thanks fellows for your valuable knowledge and experience shared.
Phillip

[Ben Framed]

The honeybees will indeed prepare for winter and by unknown factors the queen will lay different eggs from now in or very soon.  These new eggs will produce a different kind of honeybee; One that will have enlarged livers or fat bodies as they are commonly called which produce the cytochromes.  To much detail, ok, I?ll back off and rearrange my text.  Very soon, the queen will lay winter bees which are different from the spring summer bees.  All this change causes defensive behaviors exhibited by the soon to vanish summer bees along with the drones, a complete change of the guard as some might say.  Only the queen remains.
Member, Ben, beeks; if I did not make the above clear, don?t hesitate to reply a question.
Blessings
Van

I had no idea that the queen laid different type eggs, except fertilized, female. Or unfertilized, male or drone.  Thank you very much for this new revelation.
Phillip

Van

Yes so much still left to learn about the bees. You know the same changes occur in nature with most of all Gods wonderful creatures. Deer put out a thick winter fur as do most fur or hair bearing animals. Ducks fatten up for the winter, enabling them to sustain the harsh cold of winter and cold water. I suspect that God put a built in timer in their genes as an internal clock such as bears hibernate. Our horses would shed their hair sooner if we would stall them and add artificial light after the winter solstice. Therefore I was thinking the same applies to bees. I never would have guessed the queen laid different eggs. so much more to learn about these wonderful creatures, the honey bee. Thanks.
Phillip

I have been astounded to learn the bees lay a different type egg in the fall as I stated above. I had previously thought the queen only laid two type eggs, fertilized and unfertilized. And also previously though bees bodies change in the winter and fall by instinct, as a part of nature such a examples I gave of other creatures bodies changing, such as bear, ducks, deer, horses etc. which bodies change in the fall,  preparing these creatures for winter. I have spent a lot of time since your post trying to find more on this subject of (a different kind of egg) but have come up with absolutely nothing on this subject. I will ask, Is this a theory or a fact?  Perhaps I am not understanding you that the queen lays different types of eggs, or it could just simply be that I can not find any research papers on this subject? These questions add to the fact that I am glad you are here to share your vast knowledge of the bee. Therefore, I am going to take you up on your invitation, asking you to please clarify, or ask you to please send the link to this astounding revelation so I can study it further.  Thanks, Phillip