Adding a brood chamber UNDER the existing brood box

[Fishing-Nut]

I know a fella that likes to put his boxes under the existing boxes....I have a hive that needs one added now. What's the benefit to this? Just the fact that bees naturally build from top to bottom?

[Ben Framed]

> I know a fella that likes to put his boxes under the existing boxes....I have a hive that needs one added now. What's the
   benefit to this? Just the fact that bees naturally build from top to bottom?

  I assume you have one brood box as of now? In that case, I would add the new brood box to the top. If the existing
  box is loaded and no room, I would highly recommend checkerboarding your frames as follows, (Five full frames in the
  top and five in the bottom), as follows; full, empty, full empty etc. per box. Make sure you do not already have capped
  queen cells. 

  Phillip

[BeeMaster2]

Phillip
Checkerboarding is done in the honey supers above the brood to provide space for the bees to fill.
Jim Altmiller

[Ben Framed]

I learned this from the Fat Bee Man and Tim Durham. If you use foundation the queen will lay in the new cells even before they are completely finished being made to full height.

[van from Arkansas]

Both you fellas are correct.  The original term CHECKERBOARDING was applied as Jim stated.  Purpose to increase honey yield and prevent swarming and broodcomb was untouched as in original term.

However Man and Tim use the exact word CHECKERBOARDING to increase brood yields and prevent swarming.  Would have been less confusing if the word ALTERNATE brood comb was used.  However the term CHECKERBOARDING was used for brood.

So, one term, two different meaning.  Us old timers think of the original term checkerboard as arranging honey combs only as Jim pointed out.  FatBeeMan and Durham have a large audience from YouTube videos so the term is out there, two meaning.

[Ben Framed]

Thank you once again Mr Van. I am still learning. (And boy am I! It is seems the more I learn let less I know! lol).  I appreciate your and Jims guidance.

Phillip Hall

[TheHoneyPump]

Best to keep brood frames together.  I am meaning frames that have active brood (eggs/larvae) on them.  Do whatever else pleases with inactive brood frames.

You can add a box and move the brood frames, dividing them to the two boxes.  But keep brood frames next to one another and above/below one another.  Add the new frames next to and outside of the brood frames.  Maintain the integrity of the core of the nest, centred between the two boxes. Add new frames outside of and around that core nest.

Never checkerboard the core of the active brood nest.

Checkerboard supers only, honey frames in third box and added supers above to create work for the bees to promote drawing out new frames. 

Imho.   Do what you will.

[Ben Framed]

I'm sure you have a very good reason for your opinion of this. I can understand cooler climates will be taking a chance by doing this and if I were in a cooler region I woluld not even consider this. From what I understand, the nurse bees will nurse the brood frames even when checkerboarded (spaced out). The queen will find open cells to lay even when spaced out, and the bees will Quickly, fill in the open frames in between with new comb. I am eager to learn and as you know, I place a high value on your opinion Mr HP. Will you please give me your experienced reasons for not doing this as it will be Greatly appreciated.

Phillip Hall

[Oldbeavo]

Are we talking 10 frame full depth? If so why do you need another box?
A queen laying 2000 eggs a day can only fill 6-7 frames with brood. If the bees want room then they will shift honey up to the super, even through a QX.
Good frame of brood

[Ben Framed]

Oldbeavo, I am glad you posted this as a reminder. I have been intending to look into this further.  A single brood chamber has been discussed here before but I have not looked into it in a serious way.  Can you tell us more about your experiences with this set up? By the way, that is a nice looking frame of capped brood.

Thanks,
Phillip Hall

[TheHoneyPump]

My experience;   A good queen will easily demand a two deeps brood nest during early season build up period.  Exceptional queens will demand three deeps during that time. (Aka: spring-swarm season).  Some may call these queens swarmy.  They are not.  They are high performing, and require a different, expanded management approach.  Once over the hump, She will be happy with one brood box for the rest of the year. 

A mediocre, substandard queen, or old queen, will be happy in a single deep brood box year round.

Local climate and conditions of course vary greatly.  Your experience will be different per where you are. 

.

[TheHoneyPump]

To Ben?s question;
When adding a box to a new hive that is expanding brood nest what I do is 3 over 4 centre.  10 frame deeps. Described as ....

Bottom box:
4 active brood frames centred.  Foundation in positions 2 and 9. All other frames are empty drawn comb or pollen.  All pollen in bottom box. No honey.

2nd box.  2 to 3 active brood frames centred.  Honey at 1 and 2 and 10.  Foundation at 3 and 8.  All other frames empty.

If on a flow and there is more honey than described, that goes into the 3rd and above.

If there is more than 6 to 7 frames of brood in two boxes - she is going to bee too big too fast.  Add more supers to give plenty of space (within SHB limits) or Split ... else you will soon be chasing bees in the trees and eaves.

.... there is one method.  Each beekeeper will have similar or different preferences.  Do what you like.

[Ben Framed]

@ TheHoneyPump
Thank you for the detailed answer. Very appreciated.

Phillip

[Acebird]

I have a hive that needs one added now. What's the benefit to this? Just the fact that bees naturally build from top to bottom?

Yes to the second question.  You did say need... A hive needs more frames not necessarily a whole box.  It is easier to monitor progress when the box is on top.  If you are confident is what you are doing you can put the box on the bottom.  If you put boxes under the brood nest eventually honey will be stored in brood frames.  Some don't like to do that.  I like to do it the first year because it makes the comb stronger.  After one season I try to keep honey frames out of the brood nest.

[Bob Wilson]

HoneyPump.
<Best to keep brood frames together.  I am meaning frames that have active brood (eggs/larvae) on them.  Do whatever else pleases with inactive brood frames.>
Are you saying "active brood" frames have open egg and brood, and need to stay in the core of the brood nest, while
"Inactive brood" frames are sealed brood, and these can be separated from the brood nest?
I ask because I have been slowly seeding foundationless frames at the edge of the broodnest where the comb is straight. But I am making sure that the frame i am separating is sealed brood.

[Kathyp]

I know a fella that likes to put his boxes under the existing boxes..

To your OQ:  This was my preference.  If you open up a hive in a wall or whatever, the bees build down in spring/summer and store honey above.  Following the natural pattern of hive building, it makes sense to add space under for them to continue building.  They will use the higher spaces for honey, so you add honey boxes on top. 
It is more convenient to put the new brood box on top of the old one and usually that works fine too.  Moving a frame or two of brood into the new box is often done to get the bees to move if they are reluctant to do so.  If the flow is good and the queen is good, it may not be an issue. I think leaving the brood alone is better.

The number of boxes or honey supers depends on your queen and your area.  For that advice, you have to evaluate your own hive and perhaps get some local advice on honey flow.

Bottom line is that whatever you do, the bees will figure it out most of the time.   

[TheHoneyPump]

Hi Bob

So all frames in a brood box may be called brood frames. A guy pulls a dark coloured frame out of the boxes and calls it a brood frame.   Wrt the core of the nest post I was/am trying to differentiate between them by using the term active.
Active brood frame means it contains: palm size and/or larger patch of eggs or larvae or capped.  An active frame is rearing newbees
The rest of the brood box frames may contain pollen, honey, foundation, be at various stages of being worked over by the bees.
The advice is keep the active frames together centred in the box. Add empty drawn combs on both sides. Put foundation outside of those empty drawn combs. By the time she activates most of the empty combs space, the bees will have been able to draw the foundation and have prepped for her.

- Three frames free -: means at any and all points in time after an inspection and before closing up the hive the criteria to be met is a perimeter of three empty drawn combs around the active brood nest for the queen to go to and the nurse bees to work on. There will be one empty on either side of the core of the nest and one up or down.  For the resources;  Move honey up.  Move pollen down. 

Hope that helps.

[Kathyp]

Another thing crossed my mind. 

Check that your bees have not already put honey over your brood in your existing brood chamber.  If they have, the queen will be less likely to move up.  This would be a time where I would take a couple of frames of brood with honey and move it up, keeping the frames together, so that both the bees and the queen will go up. Put the empty frames under the brood you just moved. 

Another good reason to put your new box under 

[Ben Framed]

>The advice is keep the active frames together centred in the box. Add empty drawn combs on both sides. Put foundation
   outside of those empty drawn combs. Buy the time she activates most of the empty combs space, the bees will have
   been able to draw the foundation and have prepped for her.

This is basically what I did a month Concerning empty frames in the bottom box and full frames on the top and posted what I did here, not knowing if this was correct or not. I even said as much. Glad to know I did the right thing. The reasoning was colder weather was a great possibility and I did not want chilled brood.This worked out fine. Now that it is pretty safe to say the weather is now up to speed, I still do not know what would be the disadvantage to checkerboarding. This time of year? Please do not take this as being uncooperative. I am trying to learn.

> Re: Working Hives in Spring
   ? on: March 09, 2020, 09:19:20 pm ?
   I first thought of checkerboarding, however, being concerned of the possibility of an upcoming, unpredicted cold spell, I
   went a different route. I pulled five of the empty frames from the middle of the now top box. (before I re-set on the now
   bottom box). I replaced this empty space with 5 busting at the seams frames full of what we want. On the now bottom
   box I scooted the five full frames in the exact position of the middle of that box, matching the top box frame for frame.
   This left each box with five on top and five on the bottom evenly matched just as they would be in a two five frame nuc
   set up.

This left each box with drawn empty frames on each side of the brood for insulation as well as expansion.

Phillip

[TheHoneyPump]

Imho
To get the best out of our hives Our role as beekeepers is to facilitate and nurture.  Not to create hurdles, barriers, and more work.  That means working with the bees natural ways of doing things and making those things easier for them. Creating gaps in the nest does not help them.  It disrupts them.  It is also about division of labour and sending the work teams to different work sites. Wax workers over top of nurse bees over top a queen looking for a place to go creates chaos.
As a beekeeper our roles are to try to create paths of least resistance give better bigger results.
The brood nest is for raising bees, not making wax. Avoid putting foundation in the brood boxes.  By putting only drawn frames in the brood nest and keeping the core integrity together you will be rewarded with well organized nests and much much faster buildouts.
The honey stores is the place for making wax, building and filling storage space.  Storage is on the outside of the nest, edges of the box, or up in supers. Draw the foundation outside the nest core do any checkboard in the supers.  Move freshly drawn frames down into the brood box near the nest when and where needed.

All that said.  Use whatever method makes sense to you. Just remember we are not a bees and do not know better.  The bees will fix whatever we do to realign with their natural ways.  The bees spend a lot of time taking pause and fixing what we did to them before they are able get on with moving forward.