Comb honey. A journey of learning

[Lesgold]

The tee nuts that I ordered arrived yesterday which enabled all of the frames to be assembled. You may notice that wing nuts are used to tension the adjustable frames. This works for me as I currently make comb in the top super and use migratory lids. If I ever need to reduce the space taken up by the wing nuts, they could be replaced with slim line hex nuts. Bee access is available from all directions. Bees can move freely from top to bottom and side to side. This should help to keep comb building reasonably consistent. I would expect to move frames 1,2,9 and 10 during the comb building process to help maintain uniformity and help to keep the quality of the comb at a high standard. Although not essential during a strong flow, this method does keep partially capped or poorly shaped combs to a minimum.

[Michael Bush]

If you look in the old bee magazines back in the late 1800s there is a hive called the Heddon hive.  It's first interesting feature is that there is a frame inside the frame that pivots so you can turn the combs upside down.  This was done to prevent swarming.  The other thing it had was that the box was reversible.  This was accomplished by a screw that pushes towards the center from the outside frame so that the frames where crammed together and you could flip the entire box upside down.  Maybe some of that could help with what you're trying to do.  This was just two screws that pushed the frames together instead of a bolt on each one.

[max2]

"Turn the combs upside down"
Interesting!
Years ago, when i used to do cuouts we used to put capped brood into frames upsode down.
generally the queen would not place eggs into these frames after to brood hatched - meaning you could take the frame sout and replace it with a frame with foundation

[Michael Bush]

The theory of the Heddon hive's reversible boxes and reversible frames was that every time you reversed them the bees would rearrange the brood box, the swarm cells would be upside down, the band of honey at the top of the frames was at the bottom etc.  By the time they rearranged it all, you reversed it again.  It would probably work for Varroa control as a Russian invention has proved by slowly rotating the combs.  I was just thinking it might serve the same purpose of holding things together that the wing nuts were doing in lesgold's arrangement.

The other theory of Heddon's was that you could use smaller boxes (his were about the size of an eight frame medium) and manage the hive "by the box".

I think the only thing about upside down comb that lends towards the queen not laying in them is preference.  Bees have preferences, but they will use whatever is available.  They can even put honey in cells sloped the wrong way.  I've watched them do it in my observation hive.

[Lesgold]

That is so interesting Michael. It really gets the old brain ticking over. It also generates so many questions as to how the bees coped and what they would actually do in that situation. Would they uncap honey and move it up? What about uncapped honey? Would that create a mess in the hive as it ran down the frame onto the bottom board? Perhaps in our modern world the SHB would be thanking Heddon for his design. It would be really interesting to hear about this design in relation to varroa and how it could possibly impact their life cycle. Thanks again for posting this idea. Max, your approach to cut outs gets a thumbs up. I have only done a few in the early days and found it to be a messy and time consuming job. Your idea of reversing the comb was really thinking outside the box. I wish I had thought of that at the time. It would have definitely saved time in the long run.

[max2]

Michael wrote:
I think the only thing about upside down comb that lends towards the queen not laying in them is preference.  Bees have preferences, but they will use whatever is available.  They can even put honey in cells sloped the wrong way.  I've watched them do it in my observation hive.

I wonder if this a timing issue?
I found I was able to take our messy bits and pieces of foundation out BEFORE the queen was tempted to use the empty cells again.
I do think that it is a preferance thing - the preferance being normal sloping cells.

[Lesgold]

It?s finally time to start preparing for some comb honey production. Last year was a disaster as far as honey goes. Basically no nectar came in at all so any thoughts of making some of the yummy, sticky stuff had to be put on the back burner. We have a tree called ironbark that produces a beautiful , light honey and the bees drag in copious amounts of nectar when the flow is on. Looks like it will start anytime soon with just the very odd tree starting to flower. Today was spent preparing some foundation to use in the comb sections. About 20 sheets of very thin foundation were made from some of my cappings wax. As you can see from the photo, the wax was almost translucent. I spent some time experimenting with techniques to secure the flimsy foundation to the comb sections and finally decided to utilise a technique that I had been using in the past. Once the foundation was cut and fitted, small blobs of liquid wax were applied to a few spots around perimeter of the foundation to secure it to the frames. This box of frames will be added to a hive in a week or two.

[Lesgold]

I have a single hive at mates place about 5km from home. He wanted bees for pollination but it is also in a position where good nectar can come in. At the moment, an early flow has started. The hive is pumping along and is getting quite large. Pulled a nuc off it a few days ago and have to pull some honey today as the bees are starting to build comb in the lid. I will add a queen excluder and also some mini comb frames that I made over 12 months ago. Added the thin foundation to the frames yesterday. Here is the method I use.

A template is used as a guide to cut the foundation to the correct size. A pizza cutter cuts out each rectangle of thin foundation. The frame is then placed of a simple jig. The block in the centre of the frame sits at the half way position, acting as a location guide for the foundation. The foundation is then placed in the approximate seating location.

[Lesgold]

A press block then pushes the foundation into the correct location. You can see from the previous photo that the foundation is fractionally larger than the available space. A small paint brush is used to quickly apply some molten wax to a few locations to secure the foundation to the frame. Although it doesn?t look great, the bees move some of this wax around as they draw out the comb. The box is now ready to add to the hive.

[Ben Framed]

It?s finally time to start preparing for some comb honey production. Last year was a disaster as far as honey goes. Basically no nectar came in at all so any thoughts of making some of the yummy, sticky stuff had to be put on the back burner. We have a tree called ironbark that produces a beautiful , light honey and the bees drag in copious amounts of nectar when the flow is on. Looks like it will start anytime soon with just the very odd tree starting to flower. Today was spent preparing some foundation to use in the comb sections. About 20 sheets of very thin foundation were made from some of my cappings wax. As you can see from the photo, the wax was almost translucent. I spent some time experimenting with techniques to secure the flimsy foundation to the comb sections and finally decided to utilise a technique that I had been using in the past. Once the foundation was cut and fitted, small blobs of liquid wax were applied to a few spots around perimeter of the foundation to secure it to the frames. This box of frames will be added to a hive in a week or two.

I hope this works out in your favor Les. Keep up the good work and ideas! Thumbs up!

Phillip

[Lesgold]

Thanks Phillip. I?ll keep you guys posted as to how these small frames go. The secret to getting good comb honey is having a strong hive on a good honey flow. I have both conditions at the moment but the flow is only just beginning. The bees will draw the centre frames first which means a little bit of frame manipulation to ensure good comb shape. If I put the comb honey super on a little later, this frame movement wouldn?t be required. I?m just trying to take advantage of the limited time and possibly get some more comb honey produced. This is a very popular product around Xmas time.

[Ben Framed]

Thanks Les, too bad we are not neighbors. No doubt we would have a good time. Isn?t it wonderful that beemaster forums is the next best thing to next door neighbors!

Phillip

[Lesgold]

I?m sure we would have lots to talk about. As it?s stands, we are almost neighbours anyway. It?s only 14500km in a straight line. If you were to shout, I could almost hear you.

[Ben Framed]

I?m sure we would have lots to talk about. As it?s stands, we are almost neighbours anyway. It?s only 14500km in a straight line. If you were to shout, I could almost hear you.